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Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

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Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#131

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

saxonww wrote: post #66
donatj wrote: post #5

> No need to waste time with 7 rounds of interviewing only to find out the salary is 50% of what I currently make. You can just ask at the end of the first interview. I've never had a problem doing so.

Typically I've been asked by the recruiter what my expectations are, as one of the first questions in an initial candidate screen. I'm generally in favor of posting salary ranges. I like to know how the company values the positions they are hiring for, and I don't really want to talk to a recruiter at all if it's not going to be a salary match, so I like the idea of being able to screen better as a candidate. But now…

That's because recruiters exploit lack of transparency to determine if you're worth their time and sucker you into lowballing yourself.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#132

Post by projectazorian »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #98
Tao3300 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise, I have a minimum salary for which I will move giant hunks of manure with my bare hands and love it so much I'll sing arias about it while I do so. It's a really big number, but I assure you it exists.

You think this is true, and might even be willing to go through the motions for the money, but if I expect you to truly love what you do and look for ways to improve the quality and throughput of your manure handling operations the money is not a good indicator or motivator.

If I truly love what I do, I'm going to respect my work enough to demand excellent compensation when I do work for others.

Anyway, do you apply this logic to your other vendors? Do you tell your accountant that you'll only pay them 70% of market because they should love what they do so much they shouldn't care what you pay them? They'd laugh you out of the room, and rightly so.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#134

Post by diob »

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

Something about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof for this one.

How did you measure better? Did you get the same number of responses for each?

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#135

Post by jacquesm »

munk-a wrote: post #125
wccrawford wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father once told me that money is how the company tells you how much they value you. It isn't just about the money, it's about the respect. Many, many people leave jobs because of the salary. Not just they need more money, but because they know they're worth more than that and can get it. Those people are not going to bother looking at jobs that pay less than they're worth. They are absolutely going to look at the…

To follow up on this point. It's not just the amount that is about pay either... it's the fact that, during the job seeking process, you as an employer respect me enough to be transparent about what you're paying. And, on a personal note, transparent wages are known to help break underpayment cycles where workers have been repeatedly underpaid and at each new opportunity their compensation is based on "Well what did…

And, importantly: they indicate to the sitting crew how much they could make in their current jobs if they were to apply externally, and it isn't rare at all for that to be substantially more than they are making at present. So salary transparency helps employees evaluate their position across the board, not just new hires: if things are fair then there is no problem, but if things are not then employers will be loath to create such transparency because it equates to a break-off risk or an across the board raise.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#136

Post by upupandup »

gsibble wrote: post #75

My former employer had a lot of trouble hiring and getting applicants even though we paid very high wages. They asked for my help. Naturally, they hadn't posted the salary range. I changed up the listing to talk about what we provided as a company for the employee and why we were such a great place to work and included our high salaries. We immediately had trouble keeping up with the number of applicants. If you pay…

In Canada, there is this weird faux pas where asking for market rate gets you flagged for a position that requires in reality less than 4 years of experience require significantly more as it is very much still a employer's market. (4 year experience job requires now 8~10 year exp without the salary to reflect this)

I can see significant strains in hiring because of this cultural backward thinking. If you don't list your salary range, you simply won't get applicants other than the truly desperate.

If you don't offer a competitive market rate you are not going to find quality people or very motivated workers.

It's no surprise that Canada has massive brain drain, especially in the West Coast. Those that stay, like to gaslight and come up with a dozen reasons why a haircut is justified to live in the warm part of Canada.

In the long run, Canada is absolutely going to lose relevancy economically. 1 out of 5 immigrants leave in the first 4 years, record number of Canadians/PR are leaving Canada permanently.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#137

Post by jacquesm »

Victerius wrote: post #65
sha256sum wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot has changed since 2014. Any more recent metrics on this?

Human nature doesn't change in a meek 8 years.

In 8 years a whole generation goes from just out of school/uni to having kids and a mortgage. It definitely makes a huge difference.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#138

Post by bertil »

I could try to ask companies to list their salary but it’s a fight I’m not going to win, at least not alone. So instead, I stay mine.

The vast majority of any applications for me for the last 10 years have started with an incoming message from a recruiter (usually external, very often not engaged by the company). To filter out irrelevant conversations, I respond “Thank you for your interest” and I immediately put:

* my current detailed compensation,

* that I am very happy where I am.

Most conversations stop there. Several recruiters include the range, but it’s usually half to a third of my current compensation. A lot of recruiters assume they can just take the first number and compare that to the total compensation — that’s an easy filter too.

I don’t think it’s a great situation to have my compensation so easily available, but I have regularly refused offers with higher base numbers because the conditions were not there –– a counter-productive bonus structure, or more recently, no remote option; that last one is worth +50% to me, and many recruiters don’t like when I tell them that.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#139

Post by lotsofpulp »

srvmshr wrote: post #119
lotsofpulp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with culture. It is simply a reflection of the supply demand curves for labor giving labor buyers much more negotiating power.

But Japan has always been a tech labor-shortage economy. That should incentivize employers to be advertising compensation. I am probably understanding your answer wrong. Could you please elaborate?

The evidence points to the assumption of a shortage being wrong.

By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations. From what I understand about Japan, even in the tech sector, the quality of life for labor sellers is pretty bad with long hours and not much room for high pay.

I imagine if Japanese tech workers has the option of working for employers with compensation offerings like Google and Apple and other US companies, then they would not accept the quality of life that they are. And even with the terrible quality of life they have now, the Japanese world keeps spinning, so any shortage is clearly not short enough to be a showstopper (in the short term).

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#140

Post by cweagans »

cygned wrote: post #44
ivraatiems wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not post the range and say what you just said?

Concern was that it still turns down too many, maybe we were too careful. We have another vacant position soon, I might try it.

You should! Not everyone wants to work as a cog in the giant enterprise machine. I've taken a lower salary from a small company specifically because they are small.

I would caution you against the "willing to sacrifice parts of their salary for 100% remote, flexible work time, PTO and others." mindset though. 100% remote, flexible work time, PTO, and other benefits are not added bonuses at this point: they are the minimum requirements for many positions/prospective employees. Instead, focus on the selling the qualities of your workplace that make people happy to work there (for instance, work/life balance, no red tape/micromanagement, creative freedom on solutions, interesting problems to solve, etc).

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