U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#291

Post by Banana699 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 6:12 AM UTC

throw321501508 wrote: post #288

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

This isn't the only reason people want to kill themselves. My dad had cancer, and basically got locked into a ruined and barely usable body (in that he wasn't fully bed ridden but couldn't take care of himself or speak). If he lived in a place with compassion he could have ended it cleanly. He didn't. Where he lived killing himself would be illegal, and would have been much harder dealing with the legality than other…

I'm sorry about your parents, there is nothing that makes me more uncontrollably sad and incapable of holding my tears than the slow decline of aging and disease, even more so when the decline happens to those who raised you, the ones that have been your earliest memory of what healthy and adult humans look like.

You appear to have a very different mental model of assisted suicide than the comment you're replying to. I might be biased by my experience, but the mental model I parsed from the comment is the one most commonly associated with suicidal young(ish)/physically healthy people, suicide appears attractive because there is some mental roadblock the suicidal person faces, their mind can't process some aspect of their enviroment/history no matter how much they try, they can't understand it, they can't ignore it, they can't make piece with it in any way. It torments them like an itch they can't scratch. They can live their life perfectly well if they only knew how to deal with this issue, but they can't, not alone. This is the type that can be helped by more (honest) publicity and attention.

Another way of phrasing this is that assisted suicide for mental issues need not be the same as assisted suicide for physical issues, so both you and the comment you're replying to can have your way, the 2 problems are orthogonal(ish).

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#292

Post by birksherty » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 6:22 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

> miracle of random chance that led to our existence, with an almost lackadaisical disregard for human suffering

I find your position most uncomfortable, life as a miracle absolute best thing (toxic positivity) when they are thinking from a living a better life than most people on earth can ever dream of. This is the "lackadaisical disregard for human suffering" and want them to continue this suffering because it's uncomfortable for them and they themselves are privileged since birth. Nothing is going to make people's life better for sure.

edit: and if people (without psych evaluation or capacity to provide good life) can bring someone from void without their consent and with lots of disadvantages, then people should also have the option to leave if they don't like it. They should not be forced to live the long life by privileged once.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#293

Post by morsch » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 6:32 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #256

rectang wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutist opposition to suicide no matter how prolonged or severe the suffering is right up there with torture as to why humans are by far the most savage and monstrous animal species. Lions slowly munching on their prey alive over several hours have nothing on humans who arrange for intolerable suffering to extend over years.

I don't have absolutist opposition to suicide. But what are we gonna do, criminalize it? That would be literally the most unenforceable law. That doesn't mean we should facilitate the act of suicide.

Suicide is illegal in some jurisdictions. It matters more than you seem to think, because there's prosecution of attempted suicide as well as of assisting suicide (which can also be illegal if suicide itself is not).

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#294

Post by morsch » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 6:36 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #259

chrsig wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could be as bothered by the suggestions as you. I have someone in my life where it would be a humane option, and arguably the only humane option. There are some situations that cause a person to experience a life of permanent suffering. I don't think I agree with the suggestions, but I certainly understand them, and often find myself contemplating what a better societal solution could be. The solution space…

If someone really wants to do it, they don't need a government-run apparatus to hold their hand. And if they do need that, then they don't really want to do it.

You evidently have strongly held opinions about something you know very little.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#295

Post by throw321501508 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 7:05 AM UTC

Banana699 wrote: post #291

throw321501508 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the only reason people want to kill themselves. My dad had cancer, and basically got locked into a ruined and barely usable body (in that he wasn't fully bed ridden but couldn't take care of himself or speak). If he lived in a place with compassion he could have ended it cleanly. He didn't. Where he lived killing himself would be illegal, and would have been much harder dealing with the legality than other…

I'm sorry about your parents, there is nothing that makes me more uncontrollably sad and incapable of holding my tears than the slow decline of aging and disease, even more so when the decline happens to those who raised you, the ones that have been your earliest memory of what healthy and adult humans look like. You appear to have a very different mental model of assisted suicide than the comment you're replying to.…

Agreed totally with what you are saying, if they're allowed to be orthogonal. But right now they are not, it's all one thing, in most places and in how people think about it. The GP was very absolutist on how they were approaching ending one's life.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#296

Post by throwaway742 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 8:00 AM UTC

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

Thank you.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#297

Post by ezrast » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 8:02 AM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #239

nicoburns wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act Are you actually required to do that as a police officer? Would it not be up to the discretion of the officer as to whether it was in the public interest to make an arrest or not? Here in the UK it would be pretty unusual for someone to be arrested for getting high unless they were causing a public nuisance, property damage, or similar.

This is the case, and if it were as common as described, there would be many many examples available. The cops are likely not even to roll out for "someone getting high" unless they're really bored or something else is happening.

Tens of thousands of people in the USA are currently incarcerated for possession.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#298

Post by Meltiono » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 8:02 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #259

chrsig wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could be as bothered by the suggestions as you. I have someone in my life where it would be a humane option, and arguably the only humane option. There are some situations that cause a person to experience a life of permanent suffering. I don't think I agree with the suggestions, but I certainly understand them, and often find myself contemplating what a better societal solution could be. The solution space…

If someone really wants to do it, they don't need a government-run apparatus to hold their hand. And if they do need that, then they don't really want to do it.

They might want to have official support / professional support to do it proper and not somehow.

Right now this option is blocked by governments around the world.

And due to the problem, that the government can't just legalize it without save guard around it, this makes a quite good case that there has to be some government involvement.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#299

Post by Meltiono » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 8:05 AM UTC

starkd wrote: post #255

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are forms of suffering that society is powerless to prevent or treat, no matter the priority we place on it or the resources we put behind it. Whether genetic or due to random chance, some people will have little hope of happiness or even temporary alleviation of suffering, and it’s wildly unjust for society to declare that our collective values supersede those of that person’s, and so therefor their suffering…

Then they can be helped in their suffering. Even those who are supposedly incurable can be helped in some way, if they allow themselves to be helped. Not to sound callous about anyone's suffering, but the meaning of life is not the avoidance of pain and suffering. We all suffer to various degrees. Our response as a society should not be to administer death as a treatment option.

There is no logic to your argument.

There is no inherant reason to life.

The biggest issue with this topic is, that it spits in your face if someone else doesn't think lifing is the only answer after becoming aware of yourself.

But lets take a view which YOU might understand: Imagine yourself without arms and legs. Only way to move around is by asking someone else. Every means of eating or switching the tv channel is by asking someone else. That person actually doesn't even like you but its the only option you can afford.

Imagine being kept alive because alive is the main goal of all of things.

Are you aware that if a medic finds a person without arm and legs (and lower body i think), there is a suggestion to try to not helpm them?

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#300

Post by throwaway742 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 8:05 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #259

chrsig wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could be as bothered by the suggestions as you. I have someone in my life where it would be a humane option, and arguably the only humane option. There are some situations that cause a person to experience a life of permanent suffering. I don't think I agree with the suggestions, but I certainly understand them, and often find myself contemplating what a better societal solution could be. The solution space…

If someone really wants to do it, they don't need a government-run apparatus to hold their hand. And if they do need that, then they don't really want to do it.

It's really hard to override the innate biological need to live. I have a lot of respect for those who have the force of will to actually pull it off. Even if your life is full of nothing but misery it is hard to actually do.