U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#251

Post by throwaway988 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 1:57 AM UTC

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

With respect to the button in the nitrogen chamber, I doubt anyone experiences regret for pushing in their last few moments. That seems like more of a literary device. I think "relief" would be the common emotion in practice.

For myself, I'm no longer suicidal, but I don't want to be reincarnated, I don't want to go to heaven (and obviously not hell), and I simply don't want to wake up anywhere at all after I die. An endless, dreamless sleep is what I hope for.

I cannot imagine how awful immortality would be in practice. Death, in due time, is a blessing.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#252

Post by chrsig » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 1:59 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

I wish I could be as bothered by the suggestions as you. I have someone in my life where it would be a humane option, and arguably the only humane option. There are some situations that cause a person to experience a life of permanent suffering.

I don't think I agree with the suggestions, but I certainly understand them, and often find myself contemplating what a better societal solution could be. The solution space varies by cause, in some cases there's only room for marginal improvement, if any, from changing the society. That's not to say that they're not worth pursuing, or there aren't changes that would massively benefit many people...just that it's a murky ethical grey area without any obviously correct solution.

I hope you can take a minute to consider that viewpoints like the above aren't always stemming from disregard for human suffering, but through an abundance of heartbreaking empathy.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#253

Post by rectang » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:02 AM UTC

sovnade wrote: post #247

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

If someone has lost their motivation to live, then there could be many reasons for that. Society failure? Maybe. Could also be terminal illness, chemical imbalances, PTSD, or other things that are untreatable or uncurable.

Absolutist opposition to suicide no matter how prolonged or severe the suffering is right up there with torture as to why humans are by far the most savage and monstrous animal species.

Lions slowly munching on their prey alive over several hours have nothing on humans who arrange for intolerable suffering to extend over years.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#254

Post by starkd » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:05 AM UTC

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

Call me a puritan, but I'm pretty sure just giving people a way to readily kill themselves is not the way to address the problem. You do the exact opposite of that. Some things are absolutes. This is one of them.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#255

Post by starkd » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:11 AM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #250

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

There are forms of suffering that society is powerless to prevent or treat, no matter the priority we place on it or the resources we put behind it. Whether genetic or due to random chance, some people will have little hope of happiness or even temporary alleviation of suffering, and it’s wildly unjust for society to declare that our collective values supersede those of that person’s, and so therefor their suffering…

Then they can be helped in their suffering. Even those who are supposedly incurable can be helped in some way, if they allow themselves to be helped. Not to sound callous about anyone's suffering, but the meaning of life is not the avoidance of pain and suffering. We all suffer to various degrees. Our response as a society should not be to administer death as a treatment option.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#256

Post by TechBro8615 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:13 AM UTC

rectang wrote: post #253

sovnade wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone has lost their motivation to live, then there could be many reasons for that. Society failure? Maybe. Could also be terminal illness, chemical imbalances, PTSD, or other things that are untreatable or uncurable.

Absolutist opposition to suicide no matter how prolonged or severe the suffering is right up there with torture as to why humans are by far the most savage and monstrous animal species. Lions slowly munching on their prey alive over several hours have nothing on humans who arrange for intolerable suffering to extend over years.

I don't have absolutist opposition to suicide. But what are we gonna do, criminalize it? That would be literally the most unenforceable law. That doesn't mean we should facilitate the act of suicide.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#257

Post by starkd » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:13 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #21

Policing is in such a horrible state in America that an emergency number that excludes police involvement seems increasingly necessary. I wonder if you can get paramedics through this route or if it just rings and you eventually get a counsellor.

Very true. Plus there have to be many of these calls who are just looking for someone to talk to for the moment.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#258

Post by tenacious_tuna » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:14 AM UTC

starkd wrote: post #254

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

Call me a puritan, but I'm pretty sure just giving people a way to readily kill themselves is not the way to address the problem. You do the exact opposite of that. Some things are absolutes. This is one of them.

I think it's remarkably reductionist to frame OP as "just giving people a way to readily kill themselves." They went to some lengths to stress how it wouldn't in fact be "readily" available, but a lengthy process with many avenues in which people could constructively offer an alternative to whatever the person's problem might be.

I think it's a very similar approach to drugs in certain countries: you decriminalize them, in some cases provide government-funded drugs, provide places with trained medical staff for people to do their drugs in, and provide excellent addiction counseling. If they overdose, there's medical staff. If the drugs are government-provided, then they're pure and not cut with problematic substances. If the person wants assistance with the addiction, they don't have a criminal record, don't have to contend with an erratic supply while they wean off / switch to something else, and have lots of non-judgemental support.

I think it's quite reasonable to take a similar approach with suicide: de-stigmatize it so it's possible to talk to people constructively, and very likely engage with many for whom there's a better path. Simultaneously, provide a way for people to gracefully exit life when that truly is the best option, instead of (for example) wasting away in a hospital in pain.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#259

Post by TechBro8615 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:14 AM UTC

chrsig wrote: post #252

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

I wish I could be as bothered by the suggestions as you. I have someone in my life where it would be a humane option, and arguably the only humane option. There are some situations that cause a person to experience a life of permanent suffering. I don't think I agree with the suggestions, but I certainly understand them, and often find myself contemplating what a better societal solution could be. The solution space…

If someone really wants to do it, they don't need a government-run apparatus to hold their hand. And if they do need that, then they don't really want to do it.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#260

Post by brian_cunnie » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 2:17 AM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

> if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation

Sometimes it's not the community that failed; sometimes the person wanted to die.

My friend Andy Ettelson killed himself by swallowing a bottle of aspirin and pulling a plastic bag over his head. He was sure he wanted to die.

His parents loved him, his friends loved him, and he had a girlfriend who loved him. He had community.

He also was bipolar, and refused to take his meds. He didn't like the side effects.

It was heartbreaking for those around him. When I got the phone call from Alex telling me that Andy had killed himself, he said, "I apologize if I sound so emotionless, but I've been waiting for that phone call from his dad for the last ten years."

We all knew that it was only a matter of time before he killed himself, and short of institutionalizing him against his will there was little we could do.