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SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

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Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#261
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Power-on hours [1] says that:

"...Once a [SSD] drive has surpassed the 43,800 hour mark (5 years), it may no longer be classed as in "perfect condition" "

And that SSD generally has 5 year life expectancy.

So with this bug, should we simply think of it just to become 40,000 hour hard life-time limit? Well, it's 10% less than by design.

I'm just not sure how realistic will it be to obtain SSD firmware updates given that it's "an industry wide firmware index bug".

How could I even know if a particular SSD has an affected firmware?

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-on_hours

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#262

40000 (or even 40960) seems an odd number to fail at. 64k or 32k would make the cause pretty obvious, but 40000 doesn't seem all that round in binary. Perhaps a 12-bit counter incrementing every 10h? This is puzzling. Of course, I am also entertaining the possibility that no one thought they would be in use for this long, which would certainly be evidence of planned obsolescence.

It's a power of two shifted by a decimal place value instead of a binary one. Unsure why.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#263

40000 (or even 40960) seems an odd number to fail at. 64k or 32k would make the cause pretty obvious, but 40000 doesn't seem all that round in binary. Perhaps a 12-bit counter incrementing every 10h? This is puzzling. Of course, I am also entertaining the possibility that no one thought they would be in use for this long, which would certainly be evidence of planned obsolescence.

Someone pointed out on the other thread that it could be 2^57 nanoseconds: >>> 2**57/10**9/3600 40031.996687737745

I think it is more likely they shifted a power of two over implicitly by a base 10 place value instead of a binary one. Or multiplied by 10. Unsure why. But, seems simpler.

52 is notable as 2^4 + 2^3 = 24, 24 + 24 = 48, 48 + 2^2 = 52. But 57?

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#264

40000 (or even 40960) seems an odd number to fail at. 64k or 32k would make the cause pretty obvious, but 40000 doesn't seem all that round in binary. Perhaps a 12-bit counter incrementing every 10h? This is puzzling. Of course, I am also entertaining the possibility that no one thought they would be in use for this long, which would certainly be evidence of planned obsolescence.

2^57 nanoseconds is ~40032 hours. I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there was counting intervals in a 64-bit value and masking off some of the higher bits for flagging.

Any time I see these sorts of issues (odometers that kill themselves, for example) I think of smaller units at higher bit depths. That's not the only way to get to this kind of concern, but it's a way that pretty-darn-competent engineers can leave ticking time bombs due to estimation failures.

Always check types for overflow and/or precision loss. Always.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#265
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE 9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 055 055 000 Old_age Always - 39676 I'm 300 hours from 40K, time to buy new SSD? is this real?!

0. Have backups 1. Check your backups

The two above rules are true regardless of hours on your storage, make, model, or technology. ;)

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#266
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the advantages startups have is higher risk tolerance than branded megacorporations. Data, customers, brand, employees, law suits, or cynically, human lives.

The risk-tolerance of startups is illusory. The risk is being managed at the VC/investor level, by diversifying investment bets over numerous early ventures. The death of any one of those isn't a concern for the VC, if the portfolio performance is sufficient. Of course, for the individual venture and employees, that risk is disaggregated. More rigorous systems practices are seen as an impediment to early growth with…

The risk tolerance is there result of not potentially taking out $1T of additional value if you f-- up a small project at a mega corporation.

At a mega corporation, you can't take risks which make complete sense for the project you're on independent of uncapped liability for the mothership.

There are misalignments like the one you describe but that's not what I'm talking about.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#267
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40k hours is a little more than 4.5 years. These drives deterministically fail at that uptime (unless firmware is updated) and most servers are on 24x7, so if you run your servers for 5 years, it's highly likely you'd run into this. If you run your SSDs hard and they fail early as a result, then you'd be spared from this mass death. Or if you use three year leases and replace on a schedule. Now more than ever, five y…

you have any recs for lower-end bare metal providers?

I haven't used them yet, but take a look at dedicated server offers at LowEndTalk and Web Hosting Talk. Obviously, there's some offers that are sketchier than others, and a lot of resale, but if your needs are low, there's some neat stuff.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible to believe that and act to defuse this power anyway. I believe password authentication is crap and people should use WebAuthn, but I don't say to myself, "Since I believe password authentication is crap I don't need a password manager".

You've chosen a good analogy to back up the point I'm making. Passwords aren't rhetorical devices, they're functional ones. Not only that, but they're imperative. If you present the proper password, the computer has no choice but to accept it and grant access, consequences be damned. Technical writers have appropriated the term 'privilege' in this context -- should that be submitted for revision as well? Verbal offen…

> Passwords aren't rhetorical devices, they're functional ones.

All symbols are also concrete things. Did you notice that we have words for the letters that we use to spell words ?

Super Mario Maker troll design does a good job of showing this off. Mario Maker doesn't have distinct signifiers, so the way you tell a player, "You will need a POW block to pass this" would be to actually put a real POW block, just like the one they need, inside some solid blocks nearby. Likewise for Mario's powerup mushroom for example. But because the signifier is the signified troll makers will build puzzles where e.g. the correct solution is to use Yoshi's tongue to grab the signifying POW out of the sign and then you can blow that one up. With the powerup mushroom, if we're already Big Mario, a progressive powerup becomes Fire Mario's powerup - when we saw this sign before it told us to be Big Mario, so we got ourselves Big Mario but now since we are Big Mario the same sign says Fire Mario and sure enough, Big Mario doesn't help after all.

[[ Ordinary Mario courses shouldn't do this, because it's annoying, but Troll Mario is supposed to be annoying, it's a delicate art form, like Stand Up comedy ]]

> There is, or should be, no obligation on a writer's part to avoid such terminology.

That is not how language actually works, the clear distinction you're relying on is instead blurred because symbols are not just symbols. Because language is a co-operative activity, choosing to do things you know will offend others is your fault. Now, if you're a comedian, too bad, some of the audience didn't like the joke. But if you write technical documentation this is a failure, your goal was to inform, not to make some people angry as the price to make other people laugh.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#269
post #250
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (as an industry) went through this bad batch madness with the IBM DeskStar 75GXP hard drives, which were affectionately referred to as "IBM Deathstar"[1]. It's rare, but it's not _that_ rare. You have to make the effort to understand why it failed. I had a situation where I deployed Toshiba SLC SSDs (that were purchased over the course of several months) and a piece of software that synchronized to disk frequently…

It usually takes something really bad happening before things get better. Absolute best mechanical drives available until quite recently can be traced back to Deatstar. Deskstar 7K4000 were absolute best in class. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskstar Hitachi bought IBM hard drive business in 2003 for $2B. Sadly Its now owned by WD.

Of the ~20 assorted Deskstar and related Ultrastar drives of that vintage I've had in regular use over the past decade, exactly one has failed...because I dropped it.

HGST SAS SSDs (the ones that pair Intel NAND and Hitachi SAS controllers) have also been reliable performers in my home office experience, even without (RAID controller support for) UNMAP (SCSI "TRIM"). Incidentally, these now appear to be selling on eBay for more than I paid for them "lightly used" several years ago.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've chosen a good analogy to back up the point I'm making. Passwords aren't rhetorical devices, they're functional ones. Not only that, but they're imperative. If you present the proper password, the computer has no choice but to accept it and grant access, consequences be damned. Technical writers have appropriated the term 'privilege' in this context -- should that be submitted for revision as well? Verbal offen…

> Passwords aren't rhetorical devices, they're functional ones. All symbols are also concrete things. Did you notice that we have words for the letters that we use to spell words ? Super Mario Maker troll design does a good job of showing this off. Mario Maker doesn't have distinct signifiers, so the way you tell a player, "You will need a POW block to pass this" would be to actually put a real POW block, just like t…

what ever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones..." ? perhaps its time to reconsider whether society has lost/is losing a very very important thing here.

If younger generations grow up thinking that a simple word is violence like we see some do, that it is akin to breaking out a knife and stabbing someone, how are they properly clothed to function in a world that isnt absolute perfect?

you know what generally happens to snowflakes? they melt. seriously, sticks and stones.

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