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SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

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Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#251
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gives me a strong feeling of general unease and flashbacks to the days of WD hard drives.

Miniscribe RLL disks: destroyer of early PC building firms.

WD and Seagate had abysmal quality in the eighties. Amstrad has badly burned and sued both. Amstrad won $90mil for Seagate , but failed to secure $141m win on appeal from WD.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us believe it's a mistake to give mere words that much power.

It is possible to believe that and act to defuse this power anyway. I believe password authentication is crap and people should use WebAuthn, but I don't say to myself, "Since I believe password authentication is crap I don't need a password manager".

You've chosen a good analogy to back up the point I'm making. Passwords aren't rhetorical devices, they're functional ones. Not only that, but they're imperative. If you present the proper password, the computer has no choice but to accept it and grant access, consequences be damned. Technical writers have appropriated the term 'privilege' in this context -- should that be submitted for revision as well?

Verbal offense, on the other hand, cannot be given, only taken. The choice to be hurt by words like "master" and "slave" is entirely up to the listener. Any other position literally disempowers that listener. There is, or should be, no obligation on a writer's part to avoid such terminology. To borrow from another comment that probably got its poster banned, we are bordering on indulging mental illness here.

Anyway, it's OT for the article at hand. This whole debate just seems like a goofy distraction from real injustice, is all.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#253
post #229
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yowch. The old "stagger your drive replacements, stagger your batches" thing might not be quite as outdated as we'd like to think...

I have definitely seen RAID arrays where the drives were all part of a single manufacturing batch, and multiple drives all failed in rapid succession. I think this can be caused by several things: - Unless you periodically do full-drive reads, you may silently accumulate bad blocks across multiple drives in an array. When you finally detect a failed drive, you discover that other drives have also been failing for mon…

ZFS is the last file system you will ever need

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#254
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have definitely seen RAID arrays where the drives were all part of a single manufacturing batch, and multiple drives all failed in rapid succession. I think this can be caused by several things: - Unless you periodically do full-drive reads, you may silently accumulate bad blocks across multiple drives in an array. When you finally detect a failed drive, you discover that other drives have also been failing for mon…

You are spot on with everything, especially RAID controllers. I used to help manage a large fleet of database servers. We found that blocks could "rot" on the underlying storage, yet if they were read often enough they would be held in memory for months and never re-read from the underlying drive. Until you rebooted!

Yes bitrot is a huge problem with mechanical hard drives and media that hasn’t been read in a long time. What you write to the drive might not be what you read back five years later. That’s why ZFS is critical for systems like this where you have checksums for each block of data and can rebuild from parity if there is a mismatch

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#255
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking on mouser and digikey it doesn't seem like flash chips, even into very fairly high density on a single chip[eg. 1], are all that difficult to get and get info on, though they all have very high minimum volume orders. So if a person wanted to try to do this on their own they'd probably be best off finding like 50 friends to go in on the order with them. [1] https://www.mouser.ca/datasheet/2/671/micron_technolo…

The new, fast, high density flash chips from the big name flash chip vendors are not generally even listed on the vendor websites. You have to talk to a sales person and convince them you're actually going to buy in volume to even get data on the latest generation of flash ICs. You will also likely need more than 50 friends to meet the order minimums, unless your 50 friends each want to buy about an ExaByte worth of…

Like I said in another branch of this subthread, the question wasn't "can you build a high perf flash drive yourself" but "can you build an SSD more easily than a magnetic drive."

The comparison here is that no matter how much you hunt on digikey you won't find a disk platter or drive head or any of the other precision machined parts that go into a hard drive (never mind putting them together and keeping dust out etc).

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#257
post #253
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have definitely seen RAID arrays where the drives were all part of a single manufacturing batch, and multiple drives all failed in rapid succession. I think this can be caused by several things: - Unless you periodically do full-drive reads, you may silently accumulate bad blocks across multiple drives in an array. When you finally detect a failed drive, you discover that other drives have also been failing for mon…

ZFS is the last file system you will ever need

Zfs is probably the best filesystem tech of this generation. The best filesystem tech of the next generation... I suspect ceph.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#258
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, thanks for sharing. I didn't realize how closely related they were. (TLDR For anyone wondering, "recent HN issues" means HN very likely went down yesterday because of this same bug, when two (edit: two pairs, four total) enterprise SSDs with old firmware died after 40,000 hours close together. An admin of HN and its host both like this theory. See details in that thread.) Edit: If you want to discuss that theory…

the chance of two SSD's failing at the same time under normal circumstances is extremely slim. So this might actually be a good cause of this incident.

The way I always put it is, you have identical drives, with identical usage, powered for identical times. and you are still surprised when a second drive fails under the high stress environment of rebuilding after the first drive fails.

Re: SSD will fail at 40k power-on hours (2021)

#259
post #229
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yowch. The old "stagger your drive replacements, stagger your batches" thing might not be quite as outdated as we'd like to think...

I have definitely seen RAID arrays where the drives were all part of a single manufacturing batch, and multiple drives all failed in rapid succession. I think this can be caused by several things: - Unless you periodically do full-drive reads, you may silently accumulate bad blocks across multiple drives in an array. When you finally detect a failed drive, you discover that other drives have also been failing for mon…

100% spot on on RAID, I actually had it happen once that a second disk failed while under load of rebuilding the array after the first disk failure, not related to the SSD issue.
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