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U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

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Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#231

Post by zerohp »

kmlevitt wrote: post #156
lumost wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is small class size a good thing? Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures. Why aren't Universities able to innovate here?

Small class sizes are better precisely because the class can then become more than a lecture. I am a professor, and if you give me a hall full of students I’ll give a lecture, because that’s all that can really happen under those circumstances. If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions…

I’ve had amazing large lectures and poor small classes. It always came down to the individual professor.

I actually think that putting a bad teacher in a small class makes it worse than a large one.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#232

Post by buzzy_hacker »

whimsicalism wrote: post #135
buzzy_hacker wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll chime in with contrary anecdotal experience having gone to a high school with lots of selective college placements. I didn’t know anyone who chose between two elite schools based on their relative US News ranking.

These rankings absolutely influence people's decisions.

I didn't say that they don't. I'm saying among people I knew, if you got into #4 and #10, for example, you didn't pick #4 because it was higher ranked. At that point the difference came down to other things.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#233

Post by buzzy_hacker »

colinmhayes wrote: post #113
buzzy_hacker wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll chime in with contrary anecdotal experience having gone to a high school with lots of selective college placements. I didn’t know anyone who chose between two elite schools based on their relative US News ranking.

I find this hard to believe. Obviously everyone had more important considerations, but I know a few people that got full rides to a few top schools and absolutely chose based off rankings.

I'm saying among people I knew, if you got into #4 and #10, for example, you didn't pick #4 because it was higher rated. At that point the difference came down to other things.

If you got into #4 and #40, then yes, you were going with #4.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#234

Post by Kon-Peki »

dragonwriter wrote: post #204
lettergram wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I FOIA requested a lot of universities and man do they fight to keep their stuff secret. https://austingwalters.com/foia-requesting-100-universities/ Often I’d find the person in charge on linkedin and email them directly (work email obviously). And dig around until I found the particular person. UIUC put up a particular fight when I FOIA requested information about their post-graduate surveys. They’re definitely man…

> I FOIA requested a lot of universities FOIA only applies to federal government agencies, universities (other than ones operates by the federal government, like the service academies) aren't subject to it. State universities might be covered by state sunshine laws that are similar to FOIA, and generally the laws and policies around those only require a request from the public and aren't too particular about form or…

No, there are definitely FOIA laws that apply to public universities. The post was calling out UIUC and this is their web page about it [1]

But I am really curious about the argument against the requested survey data. The poster linked to his web page which specifically lists UIUC as being exemplar and providing data without even the need for a formal FOIA request.

[1] https://www.uillinois.edu/erc/foia

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#235

Post by troupe »

hobo_in_library wrote: post #229
Fomite wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accepted) is something that's contrary to our mission. It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.

Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college per…

Imagine college A that 100 apply for and all 100 get in vs. college B where 10,000 people applied and only 100 got in. If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B? Obviously college B would have students with better SAT scores simply because they are so much more selective.

Assuming that the college is selecting students for attributes that you are looking for in fellow students, then the college that denies more people will have students with more of the attributes you are wanting to be around. So it isn't just about perception. There is some math behind it as well.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#236

Post by LeifCarrotson »

smugma wrote: post #224
bredren wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I TA'd in the attendance office at my high school back in the day. The city's tracking of student attendance only lasted a portion of the year or a portion of each quarter. During those times, much more effort went into calling the homes of missing students and finding out why they were not showing up to class. I remember asking about why all the calls were happening or not happening and it was sort of quietly explai…

In California, schools get paid on daily attendance. I believe it would be considered fraud to not take daily attendance. They suspended this during the heart of the pandemic but it came back last fall. Because daily attendance is down relative to pre pandemic, Public schools are facing a significant revenue gap (5-10% is typical)

In contrast, Michigan Public K-12 schools take attendance on specified Count Days to account for the number of students they serve to determine state funding. Fall count day is the 1st Wednesday in October and represents 90% of state funding. Spring count day is the 2nd Wednesday in February and represents 10% of state funding. As you might imagine, getting students in school on these days is a Big Deal.

Teachers take attendance on other days for internal use, but Count Day is special and you must not be absent!

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#237

Post by lthornberry »

bredren wrote: post #193
hackyhacky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings. Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only tak…

I TA'd in the attendance office at my high school back in the day. The city's tracking of student attendance only lasted a portion of the year or a portion of each quarter. During those times, much more effort went into calling the homes of missing students and finding out why they were not showing up to class. I remember asking about why all the calls were happening or not happening and it was sort of quietly explai…

This is a plot point of the season of The Wire set in the school system. In Baltimore, it is definitely tied to funding--schools get per-pupil funding, but students have to actually be in attendance a certain percentage of the first six weeks of school in order to count for the funding formula.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#238

Post by troupe »

jancsika wrote: post #211
rglullis wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My uncle was a math teacher in Brazil - mostly test-prep course schools for university exams, later he opened some of his own private schools. He used to say two things: that he has estimated to have taught at least 100 thousand people in his life (seems just crazy boasting, but feasible when you are working in 5-8 different schools per semester and each class has 100-250 people) and that a teacher is always teaching…

This doesn't pass the smell test. If you teach a class of 250 students, you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded. That's many weeks after you've already taught many lectures. So how would your uncle even figure out how to tailor those initial lectures to that bottom percentile? Where this matters is in something like a lab or music practicum where the communication between instruc…

> you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded.

I've taught some college classes and guest lectured in many others. The bottom 10% is trivial to identify in a matter of minutes.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#239

Post by bee_rider »

rel2thr wrote: post #167
bee_rider wrote: post #11

I wonder how much these measurements actually matter, for a place like Columbia. I mean, I can see why, like, people might want to look at the list and see "hey this school I've never heard of is actually OK." But like, people don't find out about Columbia from this list, right? It is, uh, older than the country "U.S. News" is named after and an Ivy League school. Not having them on the list just reflects poorly on t…

Not really , Knowing about Columbia is kind of a new york, upper class thing They don't have good sports teams, no way a person in middle america would have heard of them if not for school rankings

It might not be a good spot for people who pick their school based on sports leagues, but I mean... surely that's not everybody in Middle America.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#240

Post by lthornberry »

everdrive wrote: post #182
kmlevitt wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small class sizes are better precisely because the class can then become more than a lecture. I am a professor, and if you give me a hall full of students I’ll give a lecture, because that’s all that can really happen under those circumstances. If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions…

I think it's wrong to think that lectures are always inferior. There have been many cases where a professor trying for a more interactive class has made the experience worse for me. This most often comes in the form of prolonged rhetorical questions. A teacher, fearing he is losing the class' interest might pause to ask "And, what is the benefit of the scientific method?" The point here is clearly to gauge whether th…

This kind of thing is much more likely to happen in the discussion section of a large lecture class than in a small seminar, because the discussion section is likely taught by a graduate student with little prior teaching experience.
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