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U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

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Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#211
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is small class size a good thing? Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures. Why aren't Universities able to innovate here?

My uncle was a math teacher in Brazil - mostly test-prep course schools for university exams, later he opened some of his own private schools. He used to say two things: that he has estimated to have taught at least 100 thousand people in his life (seems just crazy boasting, but feasible when you are working in 5-8 different schools per semester and each class has 100-250 people) and that a teacher is always teaching…

This doesn't pass the smell test. If you teach a class of 250 students, you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded. That's many weeks after you've already taught many lectures. So how would your uncle even figure out how to tailor those initial lectures to that bottom percentile?

Where this matters is in something like a lab or music practicum where the communication between instructor and students is the class. But I can tell you from experience that the variance among different years of students in a single university is large enough to disprove your uncle's point. I had one class that could have been confused for graduate students. Yet another might as well been sent by the Trump administration with the goal of destroying the institution of ear training.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small class sizes are better precisely because the class can then become more than a lecture. I am a professor, and if you give me a hall full of students I’ll give a lecture, because that’s all that can really happen under those circumstances. If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions…

> If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions and starting discussions based on them. I went to a relatively small private engineering school. It made a world of difference in my education knowing the professors, and having them know me, especially given that with small classes the profes…

Same experience here. I wouldn’t trade small class sizes for anything.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#213

Per the article this came in response to questions raised by a Columbia faculty member critiquing the university's data. I thought that report[1] was actually more interesting than the original article. As per the quote at the top of the report: > Rankings create powerful incentives to manipulate data and distort institutional behavior for the sole or primary purpose of inflating one’s score... It would be shocking t…

From the conclusion of that professor's article:

> No one should try to reform or rehabilitate the ranking. It is irredeemable. In Colin Diver’s memorable formulation, “Trying to rank institutions of higher education is a little like trying to rank religions or philosophies. The entire enterprise is flawed, not only in detail but also in conception.”

A lot of HN commenters here trying to "fix" the details of the rankings.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small class sizes are better precisely because the class can then become more than a lecture. I am a professor, and if you give me a hall full of students I’ll give a lecture, because that’s all that can really happen under those circumstances. If it’s a small group, I can actually learn everybody’s names, get to know them, personalize the material more and spend big chunks of the class just answering your questions…

I think it's wrong to think that lectures are always inferior. There have been many cases where a professor trying for a more interactive class has made the experience worse for me. This most often comes in the form of prolonged rhetorical questions. A teacher, fearing he is losing the class' interest might pause to ask "And, what is the benefit of the scientific method?" The point here is clearly to gauge whether th…

What are you even talking about? Have you had any of that classes or are you speculating? I had years of college classes with under 10 students — some with 5 or fewer — and never experienced what you’re talking about.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which allows a lesser data collection burden on thousands of universities. How's it supposed to do that? Universities all already collect the data on enrollment for every class they offer.

Spoken like a software engineer! Now imagine every form is being filled out manually by an administrator with a calculator.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#217

I wonder how much these measurements actually matter, for a place like Columbia. I mean, I can see why, like, people might want to look at the list and see "hey this school I've never heard of is actually OK." But like, people don't find out about Columbia from this list, right? It is, uh, older than the country "U.S. News" is named after and an Ivy League school. Not having them on the list just reflects poorly on t…

Not really , Knowing about Columbia is kind of a new york, upper class thing They don't have good sports teams, no way a person in middle america would have heard of them if not for school rankings

Interesting, because they're a fairly famous university internationally - Obama was a graduate from there etc.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#218
How to stay objective on these rankings?

What about a list of independent|objective tests(for the 100 different majors out there) to rank students from any schools when you graduate that acts like SAT|ACT for jobs? do make it optional though, if employer finds that valuable, more college graduates will take it, it will work better than leetcode I hope.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My uncle was a math teacher in Brazil - mostly test-prep course schools for university exams, later he opened some of his own private schools. He used to say two things: that he has estimated to have taught at least 100 thousand people in his life (seems just crazy boasting, but feasible when you are working in 5-8 different schools per semester and each class has 100-250 people) and that a teacher is always teaching…

This doesn't pass the smell test. If you teach a class of 250 students, you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded. That's many weeks after you've already taught many lectures. So how would your uncle even figure out how to tailor those initial lectures to that bottom percentile? Where this matters is in something like a lab or music practicum where the communication between instruc…

> you aren't even aware of the bottom percentile until the first exam is graded.

The first exam that students in test-prep schools take is before classes start, usually a mock university test that can be used precisely to assess your current level and to gather information about the class overall.

You don't need to know who are the worst performers. But if you know that your class of 250 has an uneven distribution of aptitude, you'd try to break the class apart.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#220
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An obvious takeaway in this case: US News shouldn't be the primary ranker. If statistics were distributed in open format, transparently, and there were multiple rankers (each with their own weights and mixes), universities would be less incentivized to game "the US News metrics".

It already exists and is a free US Dept of Education service. Schools have to report that data to the Dept of Ed already, so they have both an interactive search tool [1] and the raw data available [2]. [1] https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/search/?page=0&sort=threshol... [2] https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/data

Looking at [1] just now, it seems overwhelmingly oriented toward answering the question "How do I get in?". Scarcely at all toward "What can the school deliver to the student?" -- only relevant measure is Median Earnings.

The fine print:

>The median annual earnings of individuals that received federal student aid and began college at this institution 10 years ago, regardless of their completion status.

So for the anxious parent, not a lot to go on.

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