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U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

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Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#81

Post by t_mann »

hardtke wrote: post #66
burlesona wrote: post #3

Per the article this came in response to questions raised by a Columbia faculty member critiquing the university's data. I thought that report[1] was actually more interesting than the original article. As per the quote at the top of the report: > Rankings create powerful incentives to manipulate data and distort institutional behavior for the sole or primary purpose of inflating one’s score... It would be shocking t…

My kid just went through college selection process and I can assure you that the US News rankings are largely irrelevant in terms of decision making. The revealed preference score[1] or global university rankings[2] are much closer to how students, their counselors, and their parents rank the universities. For instance, any ranking that does not have Stanford first among non specialized US universities (i.e. excludin…

I think it's easy to underestimate the impact of rankings. Just from your description, it seems that one of the most important overall decision factors for you seems to have been some sort of vague personal sense of how you'd rank them. That subjective ranking is probably influenced by a lot of factors, including many rankings that you consciously claim to disregard.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#82

Post by hardtke »

brianbreslin wrote: post #74
hardtke wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kid just went through college selection process and I can assure you that the US News rankings are largely irrelevant in terms of decision making. The revealed preference score[1] or global university rankings[2] are much closer to how students, their counselors, and their parents rank the universities. For instance, any ranking that does not have Stanford first among non specialized US universities (i.e. excludin…

I work at a university, and honestly have never heard of this ranking that you referenced in [1]. Also seems super weighted towards military academies. What's their model? Are kids in the states now looking at more global options ?

The revealed preference rankings use co-admittance data (student got into Harvard and Stanford) along with that student's final choice (went to Stanford) to rank the schools. The military academies will have a huge edge because their decisions come out later and most students are highly committed once they continue their application to that point (they've gotten congressional recommendations, passed physical exams, etc.). So basically throw those out.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#83

Post by labster »

kupopuffs wrote: post #69
labster wrote: post #14

One down, 99 to go. These university rankings are absurd, and just a status game that school administrators feel they are forced to play. Individual programs may be outstanding at otherwise middling colleges — it’s better to learn about specific departments than try to reduce the school as a whole to a number.

Aren't there rankings for specific schools in schools? like Engineering, etc...

Sure, but excellence in computer engineering does not imply excellence in chemical engineering does not imply excellence in civil engineering.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#84

Post by btilly »

zerocrates wrote: post #38
bogota wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great to know many peoples graduations were delayed so someone could game some numbers

I think they mean the size of individual classes, so they're paying for more sections/instructors/instruction time in the ranking-relevant periods. Though shrinking the admit size is another well worn tactic, as it's the easiest way to increase how "selective" you are which is another major ranking element, plus it helps you more cheaply achieve smaller average class sizes, though of course you're forgoing some reven…

Encouraging people to apply is also a common tactic. You can't reject them if they don't apply!

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#85

Post by jseliger »

dataphyte wrote: post #2

US colleges foresee a future where they are under attack for being absurdly selective, what some are now calling being "highly rejective". I think they want to avoid being targeted by the fairness wonks anymore than they already are. Also, US News and World Report rankings have major problems, for instance, the ranking algorithm considers campus aesthetics and food quality, but doesn't account for price, giving schoo…

The gap between the schools' rhetoric and reality is pretty funny; I was just writing about it the other day: https://seliger.com/2022/07/06/nonprofit-boards-of-directors...:

You can see a lot of hypocrisy that’s uncritically accepted by a lot of organizations, including nonprofits. Exclusionary higher education is a particular notable example, given the soaring rhetoric of “inclusion” spouted by some people involved with higher ed, versus the reality of those same schools seeking to reject as many applicants as possible. Princeton University’s president, Chris Eisgruber, has, for example, blathered extensively about the school’s efforts to “combat systemic racism.” Princeton has a $37 billion endowment. The school’s undergrad acceptance rate is 5.6% and it charges a sticker price of $73,000 a year (yes, the school does accept a handful of token low-income students every year, but that the school’s overall demographics reflect its target: the wealthy). Does that sound like a school devoted to combating systemic racism to you? How can people make these kinds of arguments with a straight face? Colleges and universities are run largely for the benefit of their administrators. The other exclusionary schools are doing the same things, as are their private-school feeders, despite their vigorous marketing to the contrary.

Regarding the above paragraph, let me be clear: describing how something is, is not the same thing as approving of it.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#86

Post by gumby »

I really wonder why Columbia even cares: it's a globally well known ivy league school obviously producing a good education and is in NYC.* Doesn't US News need Columbia more than the other way around?

* No I have no connection to the school except I do have some friends who teach there and some others who attended decades ago.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#87

Post by cuteboy19 »

dwater wrote: post #29

For context, U.S. News and World Report used to be a trusted periodical that reported national and international news. In the 80's they started ranking colleges and selling it as a separate publication, which turned out to be pretty profitable, so they repeated the trick by ranking hospitals (1990), cars (2007), and then states (2017). The news business went online only in 2011, then shuttered in 2015. Since then the…

I feel like it would not be possible to sell such a static and easily leaked thing as a ranking list

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#88

Post by [deleted] »

lumost wrote: post #45
hackyhacky wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suspicion is correct. I've taught at several US universities, and it's an open secret that the administrative takes steps to manipulate numbers in order to secure better rankings. Typical example: a small, prestigious liberal arts college always has smaller class sizes in the fall semester than in the spring semester. Why? Because classes with less than 30 students are ranked higher by US News, but they only tak…

Why is small class size a good thing? Anecdotally, you get better class material and TA staff in larger lectures. Why aren't Universities able to innovate here?

[deleted]

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#89

Post by hardtke »

t_mann wrote: post #81
hardtke wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kid just went through college selection process and I can assure you that the US News rankings are largely irrelevant in terms of decision making. The revealed preference score[1] or global university rankings[2] are much closer to how students, their counselors, and their parents rank the universities. For instance, any ranking that does not have Stanford first among non specialized US universities (i.e. excludin…

I think it's easy to underestimate the impact of rankings. Just from your description, it seems that one of the most important overall decision factors for you seems to have been some sort of vague personal sense of how you'd rank them. That subjective ranking is probably influenced by a lot of factors, including many rankings that you consciously claim to disregard.

My personal opinion is that students are highly influenced by where the best students in the grades above them chose to apply, where they got in, and where they eventually chose to go. The software the students use also ranks how likely they are to get into each college/university based on the past performance of students at their high school with similar grades and test scores.

Re: U.S. News pulls Columbia University from its 2022 rankings

#90

Post by t_mann »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #32
burlesona wrote: post #3

Per the article this came in response to questions raised by a Columbia faculty member critiquing the university's data. I thought that report[1] was actually more interesting than the original article. As per the quote at the top of the report: > Rankings create powerful incentives to manipulate data and distort institutional behavior for the sole or primary purpose of inflating one’s score... It would be shocking t…

This is a good example of Campbell's Law at work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law

Thanks for sharing. Sounds very similar to Goodhart's law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

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