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Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

thedrive.com

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Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#201

Post by belter »

wutbrodo wrote: post #154
belter wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Cruise on Cruise crash counts? "A Cruise-on-Cruise Crash Reveals the Hardest Thing About Self-Driving Tech": https://www.wired.com/story/cruise-on-cruise-crash-hardest-t... In this case a Cruise car was rear ended by a Cruise car driven by a human, because their unsophisticated software makes for the car to break hard. As explained in the article: "...That said, the rear-endings demonstrate that the technology i…

This story is from 2018...the lidar-focused portion of the AV industry has advanced lightyears since then. You may as well post an article about Eliza to make a pt about DallE. And the limited domain you're describing for Cruise is the domain in which they've reached the statistical safety performance required to fully remove a safety driver. They and Waymo are driving all over the city during the day, with very few…

They are increasing the risk for others as:

"...The regulators issued the permit despite safety concerns arising from Cruise's inability to pick up and drop off passengers at the curb in its autonomous taxis, requiring the vehicles to double park in traffic lanes..."

And after all those light years the LIDAR focused industry can't still see in fog, dust, rain or snow. An Eliza, just with more compute power and some badly understood ML algos.

Yes, I have seen the demo videos of self driving cars on snow.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#202

Post by synu »

dtho wrote: post #170
synu wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if the guy is an idiot or not but I personally wouldn't have handed the wheel over to an AI right next to a school bus in order to find out if it was going to run the kids over.

Seems like he had it under control, and was recording it in order to publicize the problem and possibly get it fixed.

Yeah, maybe, that’s why I said I wasn’t sure if he was an idiot. He sounded a little surprised to me. But I still wouldn’t have personally done it.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#203

Post by petilon »

tintor wrote: post #142
petilon wrote: post #77

Meanwhile Cruise just obtained permission to charge passengers for driverless rides in San Francisco [1]. Cruise has been cleared to charge for rides in vehicles that will have no other people in them besides the passengers. There will be no back-up human driver present to take control if something goes wrong. Why is Tesla so far behind? Tesla is generating these autopilot mishap news on such a regular basis that it…

Why do you believe that Tesla is behind? Tesla is selling a large number of vehicles with FSD, used across a large operational design domain. Cruise isn't selling cars. Small fleet, that can operate at limited hours at night, at limited locations in San Francisco. Small scale and limited operational design domain compared to Tesla's.

> Why do you believe that Tesla is behind?

Because Cruise does not need a back-up human driver present. Tesla seems far behind because as this story indicates, a human needs to be paying close attention when Tesla is in charge.

Overall, Cruise/Waymo appear to have the better approach. I would rather start with a system that works and is reliable and expand its capabilities, than start with a system that barely works and hack it till it works. Especially when human lives are endangered by the tech.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#204

Post by hristov »

petilon wrote: post #77

Meanwhile Cruise just obtained permission to charge passengers for driverless rides in San Francisco [1]. Cruise has been cleared to charge for rides in vehicles that will have no other people in them besides the passengers. There will be no back-up human driver present to take control if something goes wrong. Why is Tesla so far behind? Tesla is generating these autopilot mishap news on such a regular basis that it…

Cruise and Waymo have lidar. Lidar can give you much more certainty about detecting objects and distances. Teslas only use cameras and have to do complex image analysis to detect objects.

On the other hand lidar is more expensive. But it is getting cheaper and it does seem like it might be necessary for actual self driving.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#205

Post by pxmpxm »

js2 wrote: post #76

Unprotected left turns are one of the most dangerous situations in driving. I consider myself a competent driver, haven't been in an accident in over two decades, and I barely trust myself to make an unprotected left. I've heard that UPS (used to?) ban their drivers from making unprotected lefts. Not in a million years would I ever trust this maneuver to software. Humans screw it up all the time: https://old.reddit.c…

Motorcycle rider here, cars doing left turns across oncoming traffic account for the majority of car x bike collisions. If the drivers' eyes aren't on you, you're about to join that statistic.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#206

Post by jws »

bitexploder wrote: post #169
ra7 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're led to believe all this public beta "testing" actually does something to improve the system. So they go out on roads, enable FSD and click the feedback button when it makes a mistake. It's pure theatre as it does nothing to a system fundamentally poor.

They /are/ the training data and trainers in a very literal sense. Every time they correct or take control over FSD I imagine it gets fed back into the training data. Will it ever create a fully self driving system? Maybe.

I’m sure other people use FSD as a bad chauffeur, but around town I use it when I’m willing to be extra alert and train it. There is a button I press when the car has messed up and the surrounding data gets sent back to the Tesla mothership as a defect.

If I’m not willing to be in vigilance mode I just drive myself.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#207

Post by enragedcacti »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #107
MarkMarine wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine there is a way to get a refund, but if I could I would. 10k on something they won’t even let me beta test because where I live triggers incorrect forward collision warnings too frequently for my driving to be considered good enough. I was skeptical but paid up front, and I’m pretty sure I got taken

I don’t think the “safety score” has much to do with safety. I suspect it’s a way to ensure that only the most obsessed/devoted fans will get access to the beta, since there seems to be no way to get a high enough score through normal driving in a populated area. You basically have to be willing to devote a ton of time to “gaming” your score, rather than just driving places.

Yup. The simplicity of the system, combined with the fact that the method of calculating the score is publicly available, means that it encourages drivers (in some circumstances) to drive less safely. It also doesn't include rapid acceleration or speeding despite those being pretty good predictors of purposeful unsafe driving, probably because those are part of the reason you buy a Tesla in the first place.

Beyond that, the way it is calculated makes it less of a safety score and more of a risk score; it can't distinguish between a person driving effectively in a risky environment (safe) and a person creating a risky environment (unsafe). Some portion of the testers are then people who actively avoid safe defensive driving techniques in risky environments to maintain their safety score. That type of person is the absolute last person you want testing an autonomous system.

This video is a great overview of FSD beta safety, I've linked to the section specifically about the safety score: https://youtu.be/sHyOL_vDQMQ?t=801

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#208

Post by hristov »

redsid wrote: post #174

Personal anecdote. I was behind a Tesla on a bit of mountainous stretch (single lane) on my drive home on a Sunday eve - so literally no traffic, and noticed the Tesla was painfully slow and almost at standstill. I realized it was on autopilot and literally sticking to the speed limits although the driver could have easily done at least 10mph over. The big truth that dawned on me was, here in northeast US with mostly…

I think teslas tend to automatically choose 5 mph above the speed limit when you turn on autopilot.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#209

Post by ezekiel11 »

spike021 wrote: post #185
synu wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is terrifying! I try to stay away from Teslas I see on the road because they are completely unpredictable. I think I'd prefer being near a poor driver with their attention on the controls to Autopilot with a poor driver not paying attention. Any test on public roads of a system that performs like this should have a professional team actively, directly monitoring it. Not just any rando who happened to be able to…

The number of times I see Teslas suddenly swerve partially into the next lane or stomp the brakes for no reason on the freeway with nobody around them is ridiculous. To top things off, one time I saw this happening on 280 in the Bay Area and I decided for safety's sake to pass them. I looked inside and it was a baby in a car seat in the back and a guy at the driver seat with both hands off the wheel holding onto a ph…

there's a lot more in a youtube channel that was posted here a while back, the entire channel was dedicated to catching autopilot's mistakes.

edit: whoa somebody is flagging all of critical comments of tesla!

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#210

Post by justin66 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #71
throwaway5959 wrote: post #27

Why is the US allowing this beta testing of a feature that impacts safety to continue? There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. Have regulators just given up or are they that incompetent?

> There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. The human in the loop seems to catch the mistake just fine? Doesn't seem to be even remotely close to an accident?

OP was referring to the safety of the feature, you're referring to the safety of the driver who was experimenting with it.
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