Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#91

Post by kadoban » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:27 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #71

throwaway5959 wrote: post #27

Why is the US allowing this beta testing of a feature that impacts safety to continue? There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. Have regulators just given up or are they that incompetent?

> There have to be at least dozens of documented cases of this being unsafe. The human in the loop seems to catch the mistake just fine? Doesn't seem to be even remotely close to an accident?

Any system based on a human doing nothing for long periods and then being expected to act swiftly and accurately is _deeply_ flawed. Human attention doesn't work like that. This is russian roulette with the general public forced to play.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#92

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:27 PM UTC

rainsford wrote: post #24

jaxn wrote: post #7

I used it every day and it does almost all of my daily driving. If it never improves from where it is now, it will be worth the $6k I paid for it. And yeah, you gotta watch it and pay attention.

No snark intended, but doesn't having to constantly pay attention and be ready to take over control negate a lot of the benefit of the self-driving features? It seems like you'd have to apply just as much mental energy to the task as if you were actually driving, so the only real benefit is that you don't have to physically make the motions. In fact in some ways it seems mentally worse, since when you're driving you…

Just the adaptive cruise control on my Subaru is enormously freeing, and makes it much easier to do long drives.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#93

Post by mensetmanusman » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:27 PM UTC

mountainriver wrote: post #30

The fact that this can be solved using LiDAR, just seems irresponsible to not

LiDAR breaks from bright signage reflection and water droplets on sensor covers… every tech has challenges: look at all the LiDAR vehicles that have had accidents.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#94

Post by mellavora » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:27 PM UTC

pwpw wrote: post #39

rainsford wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No snark intended, but doesn't having to constantly pay attention and be ready to take over control negate a lot of the benefit of the self-driving features? It seems like you'd have to apply just as much mental energy to the task as if you were actually driving, so the only real benefit is that you don't have to physically make the motions. In fact in some ways it seems mentally worse, since when you're driving you…

Because your brain is freed up from taking in all of the data points for constantly steering and speeding up and slowing down, it's incredibly less exhausting. Instead, you can focus on observing a lot more of the road and capturing things that you previously would have been unable to focus on. It's not often it deviates from expected behavior and catches you off guard with some radically unpredictable maneuver. When…

> By taking away throttle control and steering, you leave yourself with only decision making. It's reducing major components of normal driving behavior. It's not perfect, but knowing its strengths and weaknesses allows for better driving in my opinion.

Assuming you know its strengths and weaknesses. See next post, below.

I'm wondering if "reducing major components of normal driving behavior" is such a good idea?

What I'm getting at-- the delusion/illusion that the brain/mind is somehow separate from the body-- that learning can all be in the abstract without any connection to tangible reality.

How can you make throttle decisions if you don't have throttle control? Wouldn't having throttle control at all times mean you have more awareness of the machine you are controlling and can thus decide faster and act better? Because this control is already part of your thoughts?

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#95

Post by yreg » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

ncmncm wrote: post #59

MarkMarine wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine there is a way to get a refund, but if I could I would. 10k on something they won’t even let me beta test because where I live triggers incorrect forward collision warnings too frequently for my driving to be considered good enough. I was skeptical but paid up front, and I’m pretty sure I got taken

Sue, I guess. Seems like they would settle quickly because fighting tens of thousands of lawsuits would look bad. And, maybe anyway cost more than settling.

That's why they hired the 'hard core street fighter litigation team'…

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#96

Post by spaceman_2020 » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

deng wrote: post #80

Actually, that steering into the oncoming train is just one of several severe instances in that video: * Almost driving right into a barrier because road is closed: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=426 * Choosing the wrong lane and getting confused: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=666 * Trying to run a red light, right into traffic: https://youtu.be/yxX4tDkSc_g?t=732 * Stopping in the middle of an intersection without r…

I just can’t understand why you’d give up control to a system that’s clearly still in beta. The cost of failure is way too high to take the risk.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#97

Post by ohgodplsno » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #88

ohgodplsno wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter how statistically safe it is. Putting unreliable software like that in the streets causes more crashes than drivers. The sudden swervings, the phantom braking, the absolutely batshit insane behavior and the frankly dangerous "lidar is for scrubs we're only going to use cameras" behaviour and Tesla having autopilot turn off ever so slightly before a crash so that their logs can say that it wasn't on…

It does matter how statistically safe it is. It’s possible for it to be not 100% reliable and still safer than many drivers who seem to be on their phone much of the time where I live.

It doesn't matter because of the ways it behaves on that small percentage where it behaves like a blue collar on a cocaïne bender on a Friday night. It doesn't slam itself into a tree like a drunk driver in the middle of the night, it is so unpredictably bad that i half expect to see reports telling me it tried to take a train line because it's a shortcut.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#98

Post by petilon » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:31 PM UTC

tenuousemphasis wrote: post #90

petilon wrote: post #77

Meanwhile Cruise just obtained permission to charge passengers for driverless rides in San Francisco [1]. Cruise has been cleared to charge for rides in vehicles that will have no other people in them besides the passengers. There will be no back-up human driver present to take control if something goes wrong. Why is Tesla so far behind? Tesla is generating these autopilot mishap news on such a regular basis that it…

The answer is that Tesla is creating a general solution, whereas Waymo and Cruise and targeting specific geographical areas which they can map precisely.

Waymo and Cruise are also using more expensive, bulky and unsightly hardware, including lidar. They are starting at the top, with a solution that works, then working their way down. Their approach is confidence-inspiring. Tesla is starting at the bottom. The frequent mishap stories coming from Tesla does not inspire confidence.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#99

Post by jaxn » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

Hellbanevil wrote: post #32

jaxn wrote: post #7

I used it every day and it does almost all of my daily driving. If it never improves from where it is now, it will be worth the $6k I paid for it. And yeah, you gotta watch it and pay attention.

You are probally the exception. A guy I know said the tech is so good you let your guard down. He said there are days on 101 around 4:30 when he puts his sunglasses on and closes his eyes. He knows he taking a calculated risk. He's in bumper to bumper traffic. He also said their were times he let the car drive home, with one eye open because he was tired. With tech that good, I can see where drivers let their guard d…

On familiar routes with nothing unusual going on, I also can let my guard down. But you do get alerts if not paying attention and will get kicked out of the beta after 5 or 6 of those. I have had 2 of those alerts in the course of the 6-7 months I have been on the beta.

Re: Tesla Autopilot Almost Steers Model 3 into Oncoming Train

#100

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Jul 04, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #76

Unprotected left turns are one of the most dangerous situations in driving. I consider myself a competent driver, haven't been in an accident in over two decades, and I barely trust myself to make an unprotected left. I've heard that UPS (used to?) ban their drivers from making unprotected lefts. Not in a million years would I ever trust this maneuver to software. Humans screw it up all the time: https://old.reddit.c…

In theory, an unprotected left should be easier for software than a human. The issue with them for humans is that there are too many places traffic (and pedestrians) can come from. For computers, once you solve the problem of seeing traffic coming from one direction, Nx the computing power can see traffic coming from N directions.

The problem Tesla has is that they still can't do basic things reliably enough