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The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

theintercept.com

81–90 of 100 posts

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#81
post #79
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conquest for land happens. California would still be part of Mexico if we hadn’t done the same thing. Why is it our job to stop to history?

Generally, the result of US diplomacy and projection of power over the last 50-75 years has been hugely beneficial and highly cost effective for the US. Why does anyone invest in anything? Because they want to see a return. The US has seen this in spades, as have (in general) its allies. You can see this right now in Ukraine. The US and its allies are busy donating/selling all of their soon-to-expire weapons, their o…

> If Ukraine wins the war, it will be paying off its debts to the US for a century, with interest.

Can you provide a source for the claim that the bulk of US military aid to Ukraine is in the form of loans that will have to be repaid? I'm skeptical because tens of billions in government spending has been authorized for that purpose.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we forget over time and become complacent to the strong possibility that the US maintaining its economic and defense hegemony has generally resulted in fewer people doing bad things. So you go from a generation who used the military might to stop literal Nazis and effectively save the world, to more of a lull where people forget that and start calling for a removal of all foreign bases and a reduction in migh…

Let me fix this for you. > I think we forget over time and become complacent to the strong possibility that the US maintaining its economic and defense hegemony has generally resulted in fewer non-American people doing bad things. American hegemony is mostly good for the US. Let's not lie about doing 'good' elsewhere. American actions have destabilized many countries and governments to secure and advance American int…

I mean, the comment I was responding to literally said, and I quote, “End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases.” So it does seem to me that at least some people want this.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#83
post #75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To hear white people tell history these days it certainly seems to be. Though ironically, in the process of doing that they center themselves in the narrative and reduce everyone else to mere foils to be juxtaposed against the moral failings of white people.

I don't agree with your views, but I do agree with this take. I often hear people use the phrase: "especially effects under represented minorities", which robs those people of agency, portrays them ALL as being X (which is prejudice by definition). Worst of all the phrase is trotted out like a weapon to accomplish some goal. It's a shame because usually the people think they're helping

I don't doubt these folks are well intentioned. I think it's just human nature to have trouble seeing past the end of your own nose. The white people taking about "under represented minorities" probably isn't organically immersed in minority communities, but experience them mainly as subjects of their own political, academic, or charitable efforts. That naturally leads them to essentialize those minorities and lump them together.

Moreover, their limited exposure to minorities is often derivative of their interactions with other white people. E.g. someone who grows up in Wisconsin and has little exposure to Muslim immigrants other than as the subject of antagonism by Trump supporters, probably can't help but view those minorities except through the lens of their own opposition to other white people.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace. ...let the Russian flag fly over the Baltics.

That sounds like the Baltic's problem to solve.

It's not something they are capable of solving on their own.

"End all wars/get rid of the military" rhetoric sounds great, until you realize it's a lie. It just means there will be different wars, perhaps won by the wrong people.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#85
post #73
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly refers to countries with a history of being colonized rather than a history of being colonizers. There certainly was a racial aspect to colonialism, yes.

So England is part of the “global south” because it was colonized by the Romans? Is India part of the “global south” because it was colonized by Muslims, or only because it was colonized by the British? Is Thailand part of the “global south?”

You can Socrates this definition or you can recognize that it is a useful term for talking about global power imbalances from the latest wave of colonialism that resulted in the global order we see today. You do recognize and accept that such power relationships exist, yes?

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#86
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of people died in Indonesia, Vietnam, and elsewhere. It is absolutely on the same order of magnitude.

Let's not forget about Ukraine too with the CIA training far-right paramilitaries to fight Russia... https://news.yahoo.com/cia-trained-ukrainian-paramilitaries-...

I wouldn't personally put that in the same category, but it does illustrate our comfort with arming & training nazis.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace. ...let the Russian flag fly over the Baltics.

Allow women in Afghanistan to live under horrible conditions under an oppressive ultra-Islamic regime. Strange how everyone forgot about that one as soon as the yellow/blue flag became a meme.

I dunno. The US propped up a government there for a generation and it still failed to launch. Afghans didn't want it. Sometimes, you just have to accept that the best you have to offer isn't wanted or appreciated.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an history expert, but my understanding when the US entered the WWII and pushed hard to change the tide of war, you could say the US won the war - it gave the US a place in the world stage (with it's responsibilities, but also, some perks). Would the US be the country it is nowadays if it didn't join WWII? Probably not, it would be a very different world.

Russia won the war.

CCCP won the war, using US equipment.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#89
post #85
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So England is part of the “global south” because it was colonized by the Romans? Is India part of the “global south” because it was colonized by Muslims, or only because it was colonized by the British? Is Thailand part of the “global south?”

You can Socrates this definition or you can recognize that it is a useful term for talking about global power imbalances from the latest wave of colonialism that resulted in the global order we see today. You do recognize and accept that such power relationships exist, yes?

I disagree that it's a useful term. It centers white people and Europeans to suggest commonality between myriad different groups of people who otherwise have nothing in common. Moreover, it falsely assumes that interactions between those countries and European powers "resulted in the global order we see today." That's backwards. Europeans were able to engage in colonialism because they were already ahead of those other countries. Just as the Romans were able to conquer Britain and Gaul for the same reason. Even with respect to European colonization, former colonies were left in vastly different circumstances. African countries colonized by the French are vastly differently situated than, say, Singapore or Hong Kong.

Not least of all, insofar as that view strongly suggests that white people and Europeans were the cause of current global power imbalances, they must be the solution. That is a dangerously counter-productive way to view the world. Even if we accept, for example, the theory that Great Britain transferred trillions of wealth from India to itself through colonization, it is a shadow of its former self and will never be able to meaningfully affect the future prospects of India.

I would posit that India should view British colonization the same way Great Britain views Norman colonization: something that shaped the country's past but something of only historical interest going forward. At least in my experience as a Bangladeshi, I think that's how most folks do view it. We don't think of ourselves as being defined by our colonial history. Indeed, my parents (who were born in what was then the British Dominion of Pakistan) have positive as well as negative things to say about colonialism.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#90
post #89
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can Socrates this definition or you can recognize that it is a useful term for talking about global power imbalances from the latest wave of colonialism that resulted in the global order we see today. You do recognize and accept that such power relationships exist, yes?

I disagree that it's a useful term. It centers white people and Europeans to suggest commonality between myriad different groups of people who otherwise have nothing in common. Moreover, it falsely assumes that interactions between those countries and European powers "resulted in the global order we see today." That's backwards. Europeans were able to engage in colonialism because they were already ahead of those oth…

I doubt people using the term global south generally believe that the west must be the solution to global power imbalances. At most they might believe their countries should stop meddling in the affairs of post-colonial countries and let them develop on their own without further wealth being extracted. Reparations would also presumably be on the table but that's really a pipe dream given the current state of the discourse, where your average american has zero understanding of how labor organizers halfway around the world being shot are connected to the wealth they see around them.
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