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France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

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Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#41

Post by ggm »

xdennis wrote: post #33
ggm wrote: post #23

This debate won't end in a hurry. We've been arguing about what beer is since the German beer laws and before. British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe. The idea that definitionally we can state a-priori what is or is not the current meaning of a term when language itself is plastic is kind of broken because the distinction between Cows, Cattle, Beef, Veal, Bison, Oxen, Bullock and Bull, Buffalo and Bison and Cow, G…

You're conflating metaphors with obfuscation. For example, coconut milk is named so simply because it's a white liquid. It's not trying to be a replacement for milk, or trying to confuse people, it's just a metaphor. But vegan milk, sausages, etc, are all meant to be as similar to the real things as possible so as to cause confusion.

I think you are at least half right, but not entirely right. "cause confusion" is at least in part going to intentionality, where I agree the intent is to try and go beyond "its white" to "it has similar mouth feel, it whips, it makes a good coffee"

But Veal and Beef is actually similar. Rose Veal is most definitely not Veal. It was named Rose Veal to try and market what they do with slaughterhouses and with discard young from the dairy industry, to break from the old practices (male milk calves have low value. farming it for veal was how farmers made money from discards)

Rose veal is not veal, why did they keep the veal word?

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#42

Post by mc32 »

Yes, yes! This is common sense. Do not try and ride the coattails of existing products to sell a product that is the opposite of the products it's pretending to be.

Be honest. It's an plant-based protein burrito it's not a damned "chik'n burrito" or "sliced cheeze". And don't get me started with the "milks". It's a freaking emulsion oat-grain emulsion, or oat beverage. What's nexy Coca-cola with a white fizzy drink, "cola-milk"?

Thank you France!

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#43

Post by kjkjadksj »

galago wrote: post #38
xdennis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Nonsense! I was tricked. They: * make the products look like real sausages and cheese * sell them in the same packages * label them in large letters as the real thing * write "vegan" in small letters * put them next to the real things It's all done to trick people.

At my local grocery store in Massachusetts, some fake meat products are now displayed in the meat section. The thing is though, they (Beyond, etc.) are sometimes more expensive than meat! In some contexts its considered the premium product, and its also there so people having a barbecue or something can provide an option for non-meat eaters. I don't believe at all that they're trying to trick anyone--its more than th…

Its so ironic because vegetarians I know gag when they walk by the meat and fish section and smell everything raw. Making them go there to get their protein seems a little cruel

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#44

Post by JumpCrisscross »

0110101001 wrote: post #27
wolfgang42 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this is a law in France, trying to apply English definitions is probably unhelpful. Here’s my translation of the definition[1] from Dictionnaire de l'Académie française , the official French dictionary: > SAUCISSE (n) Intestine filled with chopped meats, most commonly pork, seasoned in various ways, which is often eaten hot. This does seem to fairly definitely exclude vegetarian options. [1] https://www.diction…

In the US, at least, most commercial sausages are made with artificial casings, rather than gut casings. I'd be surprised if that wasn't also the case in France as it makes industrial-scale production a lot easier without much difference in end product. Despite their efforts, dictionary definitions aren't always in sync with common usage, and it seems obvious that the latter is what we should regulate on.

Eh, I remember being confused about American breakfast sausage being served with no regard to the casing. These terms aren’t perfectly portable across languages.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#45

Post by kjkjadksj »

londons_explore wrote: post #32
xdennis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Nonsense! I was tricked. They: * make the products look like real sausages and cheese * sell them in the same packages * label them in large letters as the real thing * write "vegan" in small letters * put them next to the real things It's all done to trick people.

Especially when you consider that the profit margins on real meat and cheese are pretty tight, while the profit margins on flavoured soy are huge.

I wonder how cheap flavored soy will be in a world where there isnt a meat industry producing cheap bonemeal and bloodmeal fertilizer

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#46

Post by ggm »

Nursie wrote: post #34
ggm wrote: post #23

This debate won't end in a hurry. We've been arguing about what beer is since the German beer laws and before. British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe. The idea that definitionally we can state a-priori what is or is not the current meaning of a term when language itself is plastic is kind of broken because the distinction between Cows, Cattle, Beef, Veal, Bison, Oxen, Bullock and Bull, Buffalo and Bison and Cow, G…

> British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe. Honestly I don't really see why. Yeah the really cheap ones have a lower meat content than other countries tend to use, but german bratwurst are often around 85%(ish) meat, and it's very easy to find British sausages which have that much or higher meat content. I think like many British food stereotypes, it's likely several decades past being factual, and probably has its…

I don't see why either. I like some cereal in my sausage, I think it adds to the texture, and moistness, and I like the mouth feel of a blend of ingredients, but the relative % of meat and non-meat, for legal compliance with "sausagehood" is at root the problem. More filler-and-binder than meat? thats wierd. But.. legal.

Does it relate to rationing? I am sure it does. Remember the UK kept rationing to the 1950s and was not faring well postwar because the US cut off the taps, when the war ended. Rationing improved food quality for people on average, but there was a net decline in high quality inputs for a decade.

I am told by Uruguayan friends that what we eat in Fray Bentos pies, would not be acceptable sold over the counter in Montevideo. But that said, they are immensely proud of the link to the british diet!

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#47

Post by kawsper »

xdennis wrote: post #28
markstos wrote: post #10

The US meat and dairy industry have asked for similar bans as well. The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Different names will used if need be and consumers will continue the trend of reducing their meat consumption for environmental, health, or ethical reasons.

> The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Nonsense! I was tricked. They: * make the products look like real sausages and cheese * sell them in the same packages * label them in large letters as the real thing * write "vegan" in small letters * put them next to the real things It's all done to trick people.

> * put them next to the real things

Firstly, plant-based products are real things.

Secondly, I think a supermarket here in Denmark explained it best: They put the same type of meat-based and plant-based together because that's where customers expect them to be, it's simply easier for the products to be found.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#48

Post by kjkjadksj »

markstos wrote: post #12
coffeefirst wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I think giving them new names would increase popularity. It lets the food stand on its own without the expectation of being an imitation. Falafel, for example, is amazing and didn't need to be called "Chickpea Burgers" for people to like it.

The market wants both. Someone just transitioning from may be explicitly looking for a plant-based version of what they've been eating. Someone raised vegetarian or who hasn't eaten meat in a long time may repulsed by the thought of eating meat has no interest in names that remind them of eating animals.

What sucks is I think the clones are terrible introductions to vegetarian food compared to the real deals. Screw a fake chicken nugget and ketchup, give people a falafel ball and yogurt sauce. The best vegetarian food there is makes no attempt to be fake meat, it stands on its own.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#49

Post by [deleted] »

xdennis wrote: post #26
briandoll wrote: post #22

In the US, the dairy industry tried this and thankfully lost (in California): The Animal Legal Defense Fund represented Miyoko’s Kitchen in its challenge of unconstitutional restrictions placed on plant-based dairy products’ marketing and labeling Miyoko makes vegan cheese and brought the California Department of Food and Agriculture to court to challenge their ban on the term "cheese" to represent her products. She…

That would be completely fair, assuming the reverse is true as well. That is, being able to sell real cheese as "vegan cheese" to trick vegans into eating it. I was tricked into buying vegan sausages. They don't deserve protection either.

[deleted]

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#50

Post by bogomipz »

ggm wrote: post #23

This debate won't end in a hurry. We've been arguing about what beer is since the German beer laws and before. British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe. The idea that definitionally we can state a-priori what is or is not the current meaning of a term when language itself is plastic is kind of broken because the distinction between Cows, Cattle, Beef, Veal, Bison, Oxen, Bullock and Bull, Buffalo and Bison and Cow, G…

>"We've been arguing about what beer is since the German beer laws and before."

The Reinheitsgebot had nothing to do with a debate over what beer is and what it isn't.[1] The purpose of the regulation was to stop driving up the price of wheat up so more bread could be made and also to protects people from unscrupulous brewers using toxic additives in their brews. Everyone still agreed that thing was beer even if they had different preferences for the type of beer they preferred.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot

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