The fragmented nature of modern-day railways • Hacker News Board

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#41

Post by sschueller » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #36

sschueller wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like an over complication when you have automatic gauge adjustment system [1] (already in use) that can change the cage while the train travels through it at 15 km/h. At the same time you can easily build locomotives to run on electricity of any voltage and also diesel at the same time. Also changing locomotives at boarders is quite common in Europe so even if you can't get the locomotive to work you can s…

Those systems have some pretty tight weight limits on them, which makes them unsuitable for freight usage. I believe this approach, and why doesn’t work, is covered in the article.

According to [1] (German) DB and PKP have Gage changing system for loaded cargo trains which work similar to regular ones but require a much longer and slower process in order to deal with the extra weight.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umspurung_(Eisenbahnfahrzeug)

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#42

Post by AlbertCory » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 8:50 PM UTC

Stevvo wrote: post #35

AlbertCory wrote: post #28

If you are not a train buff, this comment is not for you. (I wouldn't claim I'm one myself, but let's say I'm a "sympathizer.") I just heard about this rather large model railroad [1], up near Skyline on private land (this is in the Bay Area). When I say "rather large" I mean "you can ride on it." It's members-only. I'm not a member. (If you were only 60 years old, you'd be the youngest.) They have giant workshops wh…

You would love the UK. Many cities have steam railroads of similar gauge in public parks. They are also run by clubs of old men, but offer rides to kids all day on the weekend instead of hiding out in the hills!

I hasten to add I'm not a train spotter (that's what you call them over there, right?) I don't have a model train of any gauge.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#43

Post by cenriqueortiz » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 9:04 PM UTC

One clear benefit of ensuring disparity of rail systems across adjacent countries is protection from an impromptu invasion. IIRC for some countries during the WWs, that was a main reason for the differences and was in fact effective. I wonder if the rail systems difference helped avoid Russia using the rail system for the invasion of Ukraine.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#44

Post by ajuc » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 9:04 PM UTC

Poland actually has some wide-gauge railways connecting Ukraine to Silesia region in Poland (originally for moving coal, steel and sulphur between Ukraine and industrial part of Poland, now used for various things including moving refuges out of Ukraine). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linia_Hutnicza_Szerokotorowa

So it's not true that all the reloading has to happen on EU border.

We also have trains that can move from standard to wide gauge and back with minimal delays. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000 but there are also more modern versions.

The main problem is simply too small capacity of railway transport compared to sea transport. We'd have to increase the number of cargo trains Poland and Ukraine owns by orders of magnitude to move all that grain in a reasonable time.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#45

Post by ajuc » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #3

An automated system could be made for this. Imagine two tracks side by side. Now have a mechanism above that lifts goods off one train and into another. The mechanism could work on moving trains such that a 30 mph train could unload all its cargo and have it all loaded into a neighbouring train also moving at 30 mph. Such a mechanism would be expensive, but only needs to exist at cargo borders, and the cost would be…

There are many solutions, including a much simpler ones like cars that can move on both standard and wide gauges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000

Or automatic unloading of this kind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzG-pizgqUQ

Imagine this but with grain instead of sand and over a Vistula river where ships going to Gdańsk are waiting.

But the main problem is too few trains. Sea transport is so efficient compared to rail, that combined Polish and Ukrainian cargo trains are far too few in number to move all that grain in time. You'd have to buy order of magnitude more trains.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#46

Post by Animats » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

China's Belt and Road initiative is forcing more railways in Asia to support "standard gauge" (1435 mm) width, which China and Europe, while the Soviet-era countries use 1520mm. The goal is to be able to run freight from China to Europe.[1] Some track is dual-gauge. There's enough difference between 1435mm and 1520mm to use a 3-rail system. Plain track isn't too hard, but switches are complicated.

[1] https://asiatimes.com/2021/11/chinas-belt-and-road-chugging-...

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#47

Post by ajuc » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 9:16 PM UTC

sschueller wrote: post #11

londons_explore wrote: post #3

An automated system could be made for this. Imagine two tracks side by side. Now have a mechanism above that lifts goods off one train and into another. The mechanism could work on moving trains such that a 30 mph train could unload all its cargo and have it all loaded into a neighbouring train also moving at 30 mph. Such a mechanism would be expensive, but only needs to exist at cargo borders, and the cost would be…

That seems like an over complication when you have automatic gauge adjustment system [1] (already in use) that can change the cage while the train travels through it at 15 km/h. At the same time you can easily build locomotives to run on electricity of any voltage and also diesel at the same time. Also changing locomotives at boarders is quite common in Europe so even if you can't get the locomotive to work you can s…

Poland has its own system like that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000

But different standards aren't the main problem. The main problem is lack of trains to move that much grain.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#48

Post by divbzero » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #46

China's Belt and Road initiative is forcing more railways in Asia to support "standard gauge" (1435 mm) width, which China and Europe, while the Soviet-era countries use 1520mm. The goal is to be able to run freight from China to Europe.[1] Some track is dual-gauge. There's enough difference between 1435mm and 1520mm to use a 3-rail system. Plain track isn't too hard, but switches are complicated. [1] https://asiatim…

This map [2] shows a proposed railway running through Kyrgyzstan to Uzbekistan. Presumably it would continue through Turkmenistan and Iran to Turkey?

[2]: https://www.silkroadbriefing.com/news/2020/12/10/awaiting-on...

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#49

Post by dieortin » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

kkfx wrote: post #2

The real *ways (not just rails, also roads) issue is one: evolution. We start a project a day, with a certain set of needs and desires. The project takes time to be complete, let's say 10-15-20 years, at the end some parts of the network are still useful and valuable many others are not. Change them is hard, demand again more time, once done (IF done) we end up in the similar departure scenario. Society does not chan…

Why would we privilege air and water transports when they're the hardest ones to electrify by far? We're in a climate emergency, and should be doing the opposite.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#50

Post by midasuni » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 10:23 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #17

kposehn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape). 2. There are multiple different ways of handling BofG; the holdup is just deploying it effectively. 3. For loading gauge, using EU grain hauling stock with variable gauge (or swapped) bogies would be ideal - this avoids issues with larger cars and heavier axle l…

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve t…

Track Gauge can be solved, various methods with various pros and cons, from adjusting bogies to just relaying the tracks (like GWR did in ye olden days)

Loading gauge though is another matter - you can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.