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The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

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Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#11

Post by sschueller »

londons_explore wrote: post #3

An automated system could be made for this. Imagine two tracks side by side. Now have a mechanism above that lifts goods off one train and into another. The mechanism could work on moving trains such that a 30 mph train could unload all its cargo and have it all loaded into a neighbouring train also moving at 30 mph. Such a mechanism would be expensive, but only needs to exist at cargo borders, and the cost would be…

That seems like an over complication when you have automatic gauge adjustment system [1] (already in use) that can change the cage while the train travels through it at 15 km/h. At the same time you can easily build locomotives to run on electricity of any voltage and also diesel at the same time. Also changing locomotives at boarders is quite common in Europe so even if you can't get the locomotive to work you can switch them easily.

We have a light rail here in Zürich Switzerland that is a Tram while in the city and a Train when it is outside. It switches from 600V to 1200V and back halfway through the journey and it does this all day long without any issues. [2]

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurweite_(Bahn)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forch_railway

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#12

Post by bell-cot »

Zzz. At scale, railroads (at least in the US) mostly move grain in covered hopper cars - https://www.up.com/customers/track-record/tr071321-what-is-a...

If you've got enough single-gauge RR infrastructure and equipment, but a problem with a gauge change along the route, then building a one-way grain transfer facility is d*mn easy. Full hopper cars, gauge "U", get pushed onto an elevated railroad track. Empty hopper cars, gauge "P", sit ready on another track, below the full cars. In between are a bunch of crude welded-sheet-metal chutes. You open the loading hatches on the lower rail cars, then open the dump gates on the upper rail cars, and gravity moves the grain.

(Yes, this requires some equipment and intelligence to do, and some time to build. It's late-1800's technology.)

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#14

Post by kposehn »

inglor_cz wrote: post #8

So my grandpa was an engineer and I love railways... "different signaling systems, different voltages for electrical trains" isn't that much of a problem nowadays. There are almost always enough multi-system engines available that can cross borders and cope with those changes. We have a jumble of voltages in Czechia and yet another voltage on our German/Austrian borders, and trains go through without a hitch, not eve…

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape).

2. There are multiple different ways of handling BofG; the holdup is just deploying it effectively.

3. For loading gauge, using EU grain hauling stock with variable gauge (or swapped) bogies would be ideal - this avoids issues with larger cars and heavier axle loads.

(Edit)

4. The unit nature of grain trains makes the problem easier to solve since outside of gauge changes you deal with large cuts of cars. No need to swap couplers on every car as you only hook on the ends (Europe uses hook & buffer, while the former USSR uses SA3)

5. Brazil has the largest network of dual gauge track in the world and has optimized it quite well; 1600mm gauge engines frequently handle 1000mm with the help of idler cars that allow them to couple up. Some lessons to be learned here.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#15

Post by floehopper »

Jon Worth's [1] CrossBorderRail project [2] aims to highlight missing cross-border rail links in Europe. He's recently embarked on a huge rail and bike journey that crosses every internal border inside the European Union (and EFTA countries) that you can cross by train. En route he's stopping off to organise a meeting in the political capital of each country to discuss the missing rail links with local activists.

[1]: https://twitter.com/jonworth [2]: https://crossborderrail.trainsforeurope.eu/

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#16

Post by andbberger »

londons_explore wrote: post #3

An automated system could be made for this. Imagine two tracks side by side. Now have a mechanism above that lifts goods off one train and into another. The mechanism could work on moving trains such that a 30 mph train could unload all its cargo and have it all loaded into a neighbouring train also moving at 30 mph. Such a mechanism would be expensive, but only needs to exist at cargo borders, and the cost would be…

an automated system already exists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiH4kt14yGw

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#17

Post by kergonath »

kposehn wrote: post #14
inglor_cz wrote: post #8

So my grandpa was an engineer and I love railways... "different signaling systems, different voltages for electrical trains" isn't that much of a problem nowadays. There are almost always enough multi-system engines available that can cross borders and cope with those changes. We have a jumble of voltages in Czechia and yet another voltage on our German/Austrian borders, and trains go through without a hitch, not eve…

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape). 2. There are multiple different ways of handling BofG; the holdup is just deploying it effectively. 3. For loading gauge, using EU grain hauling stock with variable gauge (or swapped) bogies would be ideal - this avoids issues with larger cars and heavier axle l…

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape)

I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack.

It would not solve the issues already mentioned, which is that infrastructure is built for a set gauge, and wide-gauge carriages cannot physically fit in some places in a narrow-gauge network.

And the red tape is not at this level anyway, it has to do with certification, with which the startup-ness of the designer won’t help.

Not everything is best solved by just setting up a startup.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#19

Post by notatoad »

londons_explore wrote: post #3

An automated system could be made for this. Imagine two tracks side by side. Now have a mechanism above that lifts goods off one train and into another. The mechanism could work on moving trains such that a 30 mph train could unload all its cargo and have it all loaded into a neighbouring train also moving at 30 mph. Such a mechanism would be expensive, but only needs to exist at cargo borders, and the cost would be…

article: with Ukraine using 1,520 mm gauge, all cargo has to be transferred to different trains at the Ukraine-EU border

HN: why don't they just build a system to transfer the cargo to a different train? That would solve it

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#20

Post by kposehn »

kergonath wrote: post #17
kposehn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape). 2. There are multiple different ways of handling BofG; the holdup is just deploying it effectively. 3. For loading gauge, using EU grain hauling stock with variable gauge (or swapped) bogies would be ideal - this avoids issues with larger cars and heavier axle l…

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve t…

The angle is that systems to overcome this limitation have lacked for (a) economic reasons and (b) political will. Both clearly now are less of an issue due to the shortage of grain on the global market due to the war.
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