The fragmented nature of modern-day railways • Hacker News Board

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#31

Post by kzrdude » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #23

kzrdude wrote: post #21

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492 "Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets" Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for th…

> Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; What if we don't underestimate by a full order of magnitude? [0] > The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so Why? Freight trains over 100 cars are fairly routine. [0] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/commentary-moving-grain-is... : “Rail’s economic advantage comes in large part from each railroad car’s capacity of up to 100 tons”

I don't know.

There's apparently some rail export already running, but the scale is really much smaller.

https://www.railfreight.com/railfreight/2022/05/09/first-exp...

"Each train consists of 25 bulk goods wagons, and each transports 1,400 tons of grain. "

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#32

Post by avianlyric » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 7:33 PM UTC

kposehn wrote: post #20

kergonath wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve t…

The angle is that systems to overcome this limitation have lacked for (a) economic reasons and (b) political will. Both clearly now are less of an issue due to the shortage of grain on the global market due to the war.

But what do either of those factors have to do with startups?

If economics and politics are the primary blockers, what exactly are startups bringing to the table?

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#33

Post by mlindner » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 7:47 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #30

It's a bit surprising to see an article on modern-day rail that doesn't at least mention China's remarkable advances in rail. You can love or hate their state-sponsored, approach, but it seems undeniable that Chinese rail is the most advanced in the world at present. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_China

Because the conversation is about rail transport between Europe and post-soviet Europe. It would in fact be surprising to see China being mentioned at all, given it's complete irrelevance to the conversation at hand.

And no I'd pretty easily say that Chinese rail is not the most advanced in the world. That award would go to Japan. (China buys (or steals) their technology from Japan and also Europe.)

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#34

Post by avianlyric » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 7:57 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #23

kzrdude wrote: post #21

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492 "Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets" Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for th…

> Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; What if we don't underestimate by a full order of magnitude? [0] > The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so Why? Freight trains over 100 cars are fairly routine. [0] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/commentary-moving-grain-is... : “Rail’s economic advantage comes in large part from each railroad car’s capacity of up to 100 tons”

Reading around it seems the bulk goods wagons in the EU can move about 56tons each max, are about 13m long[1], and freight trains have a max length of 750m[2] but normally need to be shorter.

In total that means the maximum an EU freight train could theoretically move is only 3,100 tons[3]. So to move 20mil tons of wheat in 3 months (I don’t know the shelf life of wheat) would require about 70 full trains a day. Which I suspect might be beyond what’s possible.

[1] https://railrent.com/en/wagon-overview/bulk-freight-wagon/

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Europe

[3] 750/13 = 57.6 wagons per train. Subtract one for an engine (but I suspect you need more than one engine) give you 56 wagons. 56 wagons at 56 tons each gives you a total of 3,135tons are cargo.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#35

Post by Stevvo » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #28

If you are not a train buff, this comment is not for you. (I wouldn't claim I'm one myself, but let's say I'm a "sympathizer.") I just heard about this rather large model railroad [1], up near Skyline on private land (this is in the Bay Area). When I say "rather large" I mean "you can ride on it." It's members-only. I'm not a member. (If you were only 60 years old, you'd be the youngest.) They have giant workshops wh…

You would love the UK. Many cities have steam railroads of similar gauge in public parks. They are also run by clubs of old men, but offer rides to kids all day on the weekend instead of hiding out in the hills!

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#36

Post by avianlyric » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

sschueller wrote: post #11

londons_explore wrote: post #3

An automated system could be made for this. Imagine two tracks side by side. Now have a mechanism above that lifts goods off one train and into another. The mechanism could work on moving trains such that a 30 mph train could unload all its cargo and have it all loaded into a neighbouring train also moving at 30 mph. Such a mechanism would be expensive, but only needs to exist at cargo borders, and the cost would be…

That seems like an over complication when you have automatic gauge adjustment system [1] (already in use) that can change the cage while the train travels through it at 15 km/h. At the same time you can easily build locomotives to run on electricity of any voltage and also diesel at the same time. Also changing locomotives at boarders is quite common in Europe so even if you can't get the locomotive to work you can s…

Those systems have some pretty tight weight limits on them, which makes them unsuitable for freight usage. I believe this approach, and why doesn’t work, is covered in the article.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#37

Post by ThePowerOfFuet » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 8:16 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #17

kposehn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape). 2. There are multiple different ways of handling BofG; the holdup is just deploying it effectively. 3. For loading gauge, using EU grain hauling stock with variable gauge (or swapped) bogies would be ideal - this avoids issues with larger cars and heavier axle l…

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve t…

> Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day.

The high speed lines are all standard gauge in both countries.

At the crossing between Puigcerdà and La Tour de Carol the Catalan regional train goes one stop into France on an Iberian gauge line which ends there (English Wikipedia needs to be updated to reflect this). At the crossing between Cerbère and Portbou it's the opposite, with a French train going one stop into Catalonia on a standard gauge line which ends there.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#38

Post by kposehn » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 8:19 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #32

kposehn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The angle is that systems to overcome this limitation have lacked for (a) economic reasons and (b) political will. Both clearly now are less of an issue due to the shortage of grain on the global market due to the war.

But what do either of those factors have to do with startups? If economics and politics are the primary blockers, what exactly are startups bringing to the table?

Someone has to start it. Incumbents so far have not.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#39

Post by kposehn » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 8:29 PM UTC

larusso wrote: post #29

kergonath wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve t…

> It would not solve the issues already mentioned, which is that infrastructure is built for a set gauge, and wide-gauge carriages cannot physically fit in some places in a narrow-gauge network. My solution to this problem: Build it the other way. Use dual carriages from the EU side and add the gauge changeover at the border. I really don‘t see the reason why the wide-gauge trains have to travel over the border. Yes…

Exactly. Allowing European unit trains to run into Ukraine for grain would be a significant improvement at vastly lower cost.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#40

Post by kposehn » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 8:39 PM UTC

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #37

kergonath wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve t…

> Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. The high speed lines are all standard gauge in both countries. At the crossing between Puigcerdà and La Tour de Carol the Catalan regional train goes one stop into France on an Iberian gauge line which ends there (English Wikipedia needs to be updated to reflect this). At th…

Renfe also operates some variable gauge trains on the high speed network that radiate out into the Iberian gauge lines to serve smaller cities. That said I don’t believe any cross the border to France.