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Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

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Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#551

Post by scarface74 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #550
scarface74 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just the hardware, it’s building out the competencies in house. Companies like Netflix, Disney , Intuit (TurboTax) explicitly decided that it wasn’t “cheaper”. Google, Apple, Microsoft, SalesForce, Oracle, are not good at creating software? Let’s say the government wanted to “leverage” open source, do you think they could make a better version of ChromeOS than Google? You also just think throwing money at a…

> Companies like Netflix, Disney , Intuit (TurboTax) explicitly decided that it wasn’t “cheaper”. Doesn't Netflix only run their metadata servers in the cloud? I'm not sure what those other two do. > Google, Apple, Microsoft, SalesForce, Oracle, are not good at creating software? Did I imply that? Though we could debate Oracle... > You also just think throwing money at a problem can automatically create software that…

Netflix is AWS’s largest customer. They run everything on AWS except the CDNs that cache their video that is usually collocated at ISPs.

I’m not trying to “appeal to authority”. But since we are taking specifically about AWS, I should disclaim that I work at AWS in the consulting department. That’s where my perspective about large scale migrations come from. I’m not necessarily saying everyone “should move to the cloud”. I’m more referring to how deeply ingrained the commercial sector has always been involved with government.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#552

Post by wutbrodo »

clairity wrote: post #316
wutbrodo wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the lines of reasoning were an ad hominem. From your other comment[1], it seems like you think "ad hominem" just means "being rude to someone". I recommend reading the GP comment's description of ad hominem again: it means making a logical argument that depends on the speaker's personal characteristics. "You're European, so your argument is biased and wrong" is an ad hominem. "Your argument is naive, here's w…

no, an ad hominem need not be literal. do you really not understand nuance in language? we're not computers operating only on singular data and deterministic instructions. see how those three sentences go together? that's a line of reasoning. the subject comment doesn't have that throughline. it's disjointed; the parts are only tangentially connected.

> no, an ad hominem need not be literal

What on earth do you mean by "literal" here? Ad hominem refers to a specific fallacious style of argumentation. Being ignorant of the definition and then too stubborn to admit it is not pushing back against "overliteralism".

Especially because the rest of your comment (dismissing the rest of the argument due to "ad hominem") only makes sense if one assumes the correct definition!

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#553

Post by Forgeties79 »

feet wrote: post #62
Forgeties79 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My buddy is a manager at a chemical plant, and your comment reminds me of a very astute statement he made recently. “I don’t generally like unions. I’ve worked at both union and non-union plants. But anytime someone else complains about unions, I remind them that if they have a union at their plant, they earned it.“

Sounds like a manager's take on unions, at least he sounds somewhat reasonable. Good on him

Yeah, even as a very pro-union guy (film background) I couldn’t really take issue with that stance.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#554

Post by Forgeties79 »

saas_sam wrote: post #66
Forgeties79 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My buddy is a manager at a chemical plant, and your comment reminds me of a very astute statement he made recently. “I don’t generally like unions. I’ve worked at both union and non-union plants. But anytime someone else complains about unions, I remind them that if they have a union at their plant, they earned it.“

When union plants are shuttered in favor of non-union plants, did they earn that too? Or does this logic only apply in one direction?

His point is having a union established often means the problems were really bad.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#555

Post by hedora »

erikgaal wrote: post #436
majewsky wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For many clients I have set up a cookie compliance tool like Onetrust Every time I've seen a cookie popup from Onetrust, it was obviously illegal because "Reject all" was not the easiest option. It's fine if "Accept all" is as easy as "Reject all", but nothing is allowed to be easier than "Reject all". Have they fixed that yet?

This is actually a setting within OneTrust which has a terrible default. We (had to) use OneTrust on eurovision.tv, but configured it ourselves to have three equally styled options.

I'd love to see this result in a company-ending lawsuit against OneTrust.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#556

Post by hedora »

hnbad wrote: post #540
BlueTemplar wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, why would Microsoft have a better reputation ? Because (NSA aside), they have been caught less often transferring private information and "stolen" company secrets to third parties ?

Google is an advertising company that is literally built on non-consensual data harvesting. AWS is an outgrowth of Amazon, which is likewise massively invested in data mining (though mostly on Amazon itself). Microsoft's telemetry in end user products is known to tech savvy people but the company is mostly known for its operating system and office suite that most businesses already use. Additionally in Germany Micros…

Microsoft is now double dipping (they charge for the product and also monetize telemetry). They own linked in, github, office, teams and windows, and are combining those surveillance streams.

They continue to support the CLOUD act as a "first step":

https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/03/the-clo...

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#557

Post by Nextgrid »

olalonde wrote: post #527
Nextgrid wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem that regulation is trying to solve is that if "personal data" becomes an acceptable form of payment then people won't actually have a choice and companies can force people to provide data by not offering any alternative payment methods. The GDPR effectively outlaws using personal data as payment which IMO is a good thing because unlike money, personal data is not a one-off transaction (the data can be val…

This assumes that businesses hold all the power and can dictate payment methods to consumers. That's not how it works in a market economy. If there is a demand for alternative payment methods, businesses ignoring it will get outcompeted by competitors who do satisfy that demand.

In practice, they currently can. Tech companies have a monopoly in their respective verticals due to the lack of interoperability and use network effects to essentially force you to submit to whatever terms they choose.

Keep in mind that regulation isn’t usually drafted in a vacuum and instead takes the real world into account.

If tech monopolies get broken up by anti-trust regulation it would be a good time to review the GDPR (as privacy-friendly competitors can now interoperate with existing social media networks) but until then I’m happy to have it.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#558

Post by smokey_circles »

adrr wrote: post #524
nedt wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you need that? All businsess that aren't online can't collect that data and we still have newspapers and supermarkets. If you are interested in that data just ask your users.

Supermarkets were the original trackers of users and first to start using personas. They are tracking you with personalized coupons redemptions, loyalty programs and through digital payments. Tesco's personalization is so good they can tell if you started a diet or are dating someone new. Printed newspapers are disappearing. Ad supported news sites need tracking for ad targeting otherwise there isn't enough ad revenu…

Very American opinion you have their. It does not hold up the world over though.

Supermarkets are a bad example here because they are a critical link in the distribution economy.

Google? Not so much

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#559

Post by stickfigure »

dmitriid wrote: post #452
stickfigure wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it illegal to use my website from Italy? I store PII (and everything else) in the US.

No. It's illegal for you to operate in the EU.

What does that mean? Europeans use my website.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#560

Post by DisjointedHunt »

denton-scratch wrote: post #549
DisjointedHunt wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad law for the reasons above. Ie, onerous toward regular businesses Ie, used to greatly expand bureaucracy and overhead Ie, used by unelected bureaucrats to wage battles of personal vendetta against specific companies instead of doing what laws do, which is set unambiguous standards for all

In fact it's not at all onerous, unless you are determined to violate it's provisions. If your business doesn't depend on privacy violations, then the "bureaucracy" that GDPR calls for is trivially easy to implement. There are no licences, and no registration requirements. Provided you aren't playing fast and loose with the personal data of Europeans, you're fine. There's no "personal vendettas" going on; can you sub…

"iTs nOt aT aLl oNeRoUs" said the DPO. lol, what a clown. So all these companies scrambling to hire lawyers to document every single aspect of the "legal basis" or whatever nonsense is in the language are just crazy in your books?

And that's just ONE sub clause of a hundred or so.

The overhead is both in the arbitrary nature of the requirements (Good Laws are objective, not subjective) and the sheer lack of consistency in the enforcement is ridiculous for any European business. Consider the adequacy clause that's taken decades to litigate and is still fucking criminal as of this writing.

Answer this simple question: "Can I, as a small business use AWS services that may or may not have a compute instance located in the EU?". You know pretty well what the answer is there, so, basically every small business in the EU is in violation right now. And it's bureaucratic assholery that keeps this deliberately inconsistent so they can choose to enforce it at any point of their choosing (read, a negative PR cycle) - Monarchy, inconsistency, arbitrary and ambiguous rulemaking that has tossed out the interests of businesses.

The vendetta against Google is well documented and it's insulting for you to even say otherwise. Look at the most recent example of the CNIL (Frances privacy enforcement body, a part of the executive) choosing arbitrary standards and refusing to even elaborate on concrete standards for recommended analytics solutions that businesses may use. They have gone full psycho with not even wanting to give Google the opportunity to come into compliance with standards that they choose not to reveal and instead openly ask industry to turn Google Analytics off. Its ridiculous and bad for their own economies.

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