Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

gpdp.it

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 614 posts

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#541

Post by makeitdouble »

4ggr0 wrote: post #503
makeitdouble wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GCP and Azure have options to keep all data within the EU, I'm sure AWS has something to at this point. In France GCP is approved for public business, so it seems to be working fine. On your general point, we're way past the point where a company is allowed to blindly use any random SaaS without caring about what it does with the data or where it goes. The pendulum is clearly swinging back.

> GCP and Azure have options to keep all data within the EU I wonder how much of a difference this makes, if the DCs still belong to these american companies and this thing exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act

GCP made a few adjustments to have something that is compatible with both US laws and the GDPR

https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/compliance/how-google...

From memory, gov entities also have deeper customizations, and data centers might be separate from customers and the standard Google operation altogether.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#542

Post by AdriaanvRossum »

apd_ wrote: post #403
AdriaanvRossum wrote: post #278

Regarding forbidden countries, it’s not forbidden in the Netherlands, yet. They will announce a verdict in a form of a report by the end of 2022 [1]. To give people an option and pink something else over Google Analytics, I have built an alternative, Simple Analytics [2]. It doesn’t use cookies or any form of tracking and you get still the useful data that 80% of the website owners need. [1] https://autoriteitpersoon…

How do you track "visitors"?

With a referrer, see these docs [1]

[1] https://docs.simpleanalytics.com/explained/unique-visits

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#543

Post by AdriaanvRossum »

jeroenhd wrote: post #286
AdriaanvRossum wrote: post #278

Regarding forbidden countries, it’s not forbidden in the Netherlands, yet. They will announce a verdict in a form of a report by the end of 2022 [1]. To give people an option and pink something else over Google Analytics, I have built an alternative, Simple Analytics [2]. It doesn’t use cookies or any form of tracking and you get still the useful data that 80% of the website owners need. [1] https://autoriteitpersoon…

Worth mentioning that DPAs tend to work together to prevent conflicting laws across the EU. Following Austrian, French, and now Italian rulings, it's almost guaranteed that the Dutch authority will come to the same conclusion.

Yes, I think so too.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#544

Post by denton-scratch »

IX-103 wrote: post #355
jeroenhd wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're perfectly legal if they don't process any PII. If a US company serves static content there's no need to fear the EU; they'll just have to disable illegal external integrations like Google Analytics/Fonts/etc. A company doing business with other companies might find themselves in a position where they can comply perfectly. Not every company needs to collect PII, though these days every company likes to pretend…

When PII includes IP addresses it's kind of hard not to process. How else are you supposed to group metrics over a session (since cookies are also forbidden)? This seems to ban third-party analytics by any US company. The cynic in me feels this is a little convenient in how it advantages EU organizations over foreign ones...

> group metrics over a session

How is that something that is essential to providing a service?

I suppose that it's somehow "commercially advantageous", but there are many other commercially advantageous techniques that are simply illegal - such as taking a customer's money, but supplying zero in exchange.

A company's profit needs are not an end-run around consumer protection laws (which is what GDPR amounts to).

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#545

Post by Dylan16807 »

scarface74 wrote: post #531
Dylan16807 wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could. Or it can offer tens of millions of dollars for some software and see who bids. Especially when the previous provider would probably like to get more money selling something to the government, even if they have to make changes. The above poster was willing to pay "1% GDP" for the initial migration and for the US 200 billion dollars would pay for a lot of development work.

The companies bidding for the work would also be private industry. Wasn’t the entire idea to remove private industry from government? Do you really think the government has the competence to create software? How many decades has the US government been trying to modernize the IRS? Do you remember the original ACA website rollout? Not only do you have to hire developers, you have to hire project managers, retrain emplo…

> Wasn’t the entire idea to remove private industry from government?

I think the main idea was to remove third party data storage? With some open source? You can contract both of those out, and when it's open source the company doesn't have the same kind of leverage.

> Do you really think the government has the competence to create software?

It's not like companies are usually good at it either, so shrug.

> Are you going to also create data centers to create what’s available in the public cloud? You need to make those redundant across regions, are you going to force open sourcing of control plane software?

At that scale, datacenters are cheaper than cloud hardware. As for making the cloud software, well, billions of dollars can buy a lot. Force shouldn't be necessary.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#546

Post by godshatter »

kixiQu wrote: post #143
digitalengineer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some time ago Google gave EU admins the option to select a local regional (EU) server. This means the data is not send to the US. But! It’s still nog fully legal as the Google HQ (and thus the US government( can still access all the data.

if anyone is curious about why that gives the govt. access: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act (God willing they repeal it, even if only for the international commerce implications...)

Presumably the Five Eyes alliance could also mean that servers in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the UK may also be unusable since they share intelligence information with the US.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#547

Post by scarface74 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #545
scarface74 wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The companies bidding for the work would also be private industry. Wasn’t the entire idea to remove private industry from government? Do you really think the government has the competence to create software? How many decades has the US government been trying to modernize the IRS? Do you remember the original ACA website rollout? Not only do you have to hire developers, you have to hire project managers, retrain emplo…

> Wasn’t the entire idea to remove private industry from government? I think the main idea was to remove third party data storage? With some open source? You can contract both of those out, and when it's open source the company doesn't have the same kind of leverage. > Do you really think the government has the competence to create software? It's not like companies are usually good at it either, so shrug. > Are you g…

It’s not just the hardware, it’s building out the competencies in house. Companies like Netflix, Disney , Intuit (TurboTax) explicitly decided that it wasn’t “cheaper”.

Google, Apple, Microsoft, SalesForce, Oracle, are not good at creating software?

Let’s say the government wanted to “leverage” open source, do you think they could make a better version of ChromeOS than Google?

You also just think throwing money at a problem can automatically create software that is better than private corporations?

The original poster said:

i’d support any legislation that booted google, fb, ms, adobe, salesforce, and a whole host of other surveillance tech companies from any and all levels of government. it’s literally as important as the separation of church and state. in fact, i’d love to see a constitutional amendment explicitly separating corporate interests from governmental ones, in all facets of civic life (e.g., campaign finance).

They don’t want any private company involved in government IT. That means the government has to build everything out themselves without using contractors.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#548

Post by DisjointedHunt »

denton-scratch wrote: post #536
DisjointedHunt wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, before accusing someone of looking at this politically, please read the comment fully. You’re taking pains to explain why GDPR is a compromise? Why? If it’s bad law, it’s bad law. Nothing you said invalidates the assertions I’ve made. Unless you’ve directly experienced the onerous system of regulations in places like Germany, I’d urge you to do more research before the armchair dismissal.

> If it’s bad law, it’s bad law. Presumably it's your opinion that it's a bad law. The majority of Europeans think it's a good law - possibly the best regulation the EU has ever promulgated.

Bad law for the reasons above.

Ie, onerous toward regular businesses Ie, used to greatly expand bureaucracy and overhead Ie, used by unelected bureaucrats to wage battles of personal vendetta against specific companies instead of doing what laws do, which is set unambiguous standards for all

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#549

Post by denton-scratch »

DisjointedHunt wrote: post #548
denton-scratch wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it’s bad law, it’s bad law. Presumably it's your opinion that it's a bad law. The majority of Europeans think it's a good law - possibly the best regulation the EU has ever promulgated.

Bad law for the reasons above. Ie, onerous toward regular businesses Ie, used to greatly expand bureaucracy and overhead Ie, used by unelected bureaucrats to wage battles of personal vendetta against specific companies instead of doing what laws do, which is set unambiguous standards for all

In fact it's not at all onerous, unless you are determined to violate it's provisions. If your business doesn't depend on privacy violations, then the "bureaucracy" that GDPR calls for is trivially easy to implement. There are no licences, and no registration requirements. Provided you aren't playing fast and loose with the personal data of Europeans, you're fine.

There's no "personal vendettas" going on; can you substantiate that allegation at all? The GDPR applies to everyone equally. And unlike some laws, it's fairly easy to read; it's meant to be understood. Don't bother reading some biased summary of the Regulation; read the GDPR itself. That's the best guidance on the intent, and the best guidance on how to comply.

/me: former data protection officer at a web development outfit.

Re: Italian watchdog bans use of Google Analytics

#550

Post by Dylan16807 »

scarface74 wrote: post #547
Dylan16807 wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wasn’t the entire idea to remove private industry from government? I think the main idea was to remove third party data storage? With some open source? You can contract both of those out, and when it's open source the company doesn't have the same kind of leverage. > Do you really think the government has the competence to create software? It's not like companies are usually good at it either, so shrug. > Are you g…

It’s not just the hardware, it’s building out the competencies in house. Companies like Netflix, Disney , Intuit (TurboTax) explicitly decided that it wasn’t “cheaper”. Google, Apple, Microsoft, SalesForce, Oracle, are not good at creating software? Let’s say the government wanted to “leverage” open source, do you think they could make a better version of ChromeOS than Google? You also just think throwing money at a…

> Companies like Netflix, Disney , Intuit (TurboTax) explicitly decided that it wasn’t “cheaper”.

Doesn't Netflix only run their metadata servers in the cloud? I'm not sure what those other two do.

> Google, Apple, Microsoft, SalesForce, Oracle, are not good at creating software?

Did I imply that?

Though we could debate Oracle...

> You also just think throwing money at a problem can automatically create software that is better than private corporations?

I never said better. But "good enough", in avoidance of horrible privacy violations, is a choice I'd approve of.

And open source software usually does quite well when given moderate funding.

> They don’t want any private company involved in government IT.

My interpretation is that if you get rid of the surveillance you solve the main problem, as far as outsourcing goes. If that's wrong then some of what I suggested isn't compatible.

Post reply on HN