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Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

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Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#81

Post by [deleted] »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #61
bmac27 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Countries where prostitution is legal still see organized abuses in the industry, like brothel owners not following regulations, etc." There are organized abuses in every industry, legal or not. We're not scrapping the insurance market because of the schemes that go on between doctors, lawyers & individuals looking to make a buck through phoney claims.

That is true, and while I used prostitution as an example, I personally don't see why it should be illegal. However heroin addiction is not the same as corporations and governments lobbying in cahoots. Drugs aren't really viable for an effective lifestyle - at least, not the ones organized crime profits the most on. Even prescription drugs like Vicodin were nearly pulled off the market because of how dangerous they a…

[deleted]

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#82

Post by jfoutz »

rdl wrote: post #37
jfoutz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has that ever worked? In the U.S. anyway, gangs only seemed to disappear after pretty intense FBI work. I'm thinking of stuff like http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/organizedcrime/itali... but maybe there's much more militarized approach that's been effective that i'm forgetting.

There aren't criminal organizations in the USA which can credibly threaten state governments, let aloe the Feds. This is different in other countries. Hence, law enforcement to solve crime in the USA; targeted killings in Mexico.

The point i'm trying to make, the super glamorous "send in the military and take out the boss" kind of tactics are ultimately doomed to fail. You have to do the sucky work of grinding away at the base. a tax evasion conviction here, a conspiracy charge there. Keep enough pressure on the base of the pyramid that it starts getting a little tougher to find people willing to deal or be mules or enforcers or whatever. It's not a huge change, it just ups the cost of doing business a few percent, but that's a few percent that would be making a larger organization, that now they're spending staying the same size.

Those sorts of tactics, over decades seem to really effectively grind down gangs. Swooping in with helicopters and m-16's is expensive and (i think) not very effective. Perhaps there's a counter example i'm overlooking. However, if you take the long view of the question how do you fight organized crime? I think you'll see the only effective solutions take generations. Just slowly tightening the noose around more and more unacceptable activities.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#83

Post by r0s »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #36
tjmc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or end the futile prohibition on drugs and tax them instead. Worked for alcohol.

That is an over-simplified solution to a complicated problem. Organized crime would change, not cease to exist. Countries where prostitution is legal still see organized abuses in the industry, like brothel owners not following regulations, etc. Moreover, marijuana has the highest likelihood of being legalized of any drug (still not likely) and yet, it is the lowest profit margin for organized crime. Cocaine, ecstasy…

When doses are measured and regulated, safety restrictions are adhered, and users can receive help for their problems instead of incarceration, then legalization becomes socially responsible.

I would like to point out that usage of these dangerous drugs does not decrease with their legal status.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#84

Post by r0s »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #57
mdda wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit margins should be expected to be proportionate to illegality : Since the threat of punishment forces vibrant competition out of the market. Similarly, one can track the effectiveness of the war on drugs by looking at the street prices of drugs over time. If the war was effective, prices would be rising. Unfortunately, basic economic theory shows that the war on drugs is a complete failure.

Right. And like I said, it might be a fiscal improvement to legalize drugs. You could earn money from it. But, and i mean this in all sincerity, do you want to live in a society where they're freely accessible?

I absolutely would, I live in a society where guns are freely available.

What's the difference? We have to assume reasonable personal responsibility. What's the alternative?

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#85

Post by knieveltech »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #57
mdda wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit margins should be expected to be proportionate to illegality : Since the threat of punishment forces vibrant competition out of the market. Similarly, one can track the effectiveness of the war on drugs by looking at the street prices of drugs over time. If the war was effective, prices would be rising. Unfortunately, basic economic theory shows that the war on drugs is a complete failure.

Right. And like I said, it might be a fiscal improvement to legalize drugs. You could earn money from it. But, and i mean this in all sincerity, do you want to live in a society where they're freely accessible?

If you live anywhere in North America, you're already living in a society where they're freely accessible, so in that respect prohibition has clearly failed.

I understand we've all been propagandized to believe that drug use is inherently evil, however it's a mistake to lose site of the fact that (at least in the US) the prison system is largely a subcontracted for-profit industry. An industry with a clearly vested interest in maintaining soaring drug-related conviction rates as well as mandatory minimum sentencing.

I, for one, would absolutely prefer to live in a society where drug dependency is treated like a disease and treated.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#86

Post by snsr »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #61
bmac27 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Countries where prostitution is legal still see organized abuses in the industry, like brothel owners not following regulations, etc." There are organized abuses in every industry, legal or not. We're not scrapping the insurance market because of the schemes that go on between doctors, lawyers & individuals looking to make a buck through phoney claims.

That is true, and while I used prostitution as an example, I personally don't see why it should be illegal. However heroin addiction is not the same as corporations and governments lobbying in cahoots. Drugs aren't really viable for an effective lifestyle - at least, not the ones organized crime profits the most on. Even prescription drugs like Vicodin were nearly pulled off the market because of how dangerous they a…

> I used prostitution as an example, I personally don't see why it should be illegal. However heroin addiction is not the same as corporations and governments lobbying in cahoots. Drugs aren't really viable for an effective lifestyle - at least, not the ones organized crime profits the most on. Even prescription drugs like Vicodin were nearly pulled off the market because of how dangerous they are, even when used correctly and in moderation.

Who are you to dictate what constitutes an "effective lifestyle" for anyone but yourself?

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#87

Post by dylangs1030 »

robotresearcher wrote: post #71
dylangs1030 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not obviously false either - it's at least arguably true. When I said fiscally lucrative, I was admitting there may be a certain profit to legalizing these substances. However, it's socially irresponsible. I don't think a society will function as well with a government making clearly adverse narcotics freely available because people want them.

"clearly adverse narcotics" How are they clearly adverse? Why was it not clear before the middle of the 20th century? Why is it not clear in other countries? Why was alcohol "clearly adverse" in the early 20th century in the US? What's the evidence that making drugs illegal has net benefits to society? It is very, very expensive and unhealthy to lock up so many young people for drug offenses. Illegal drugs do a lot o…

Legalizing something harmful because there are other harmful things that are ALSO legal isn't sensible. It just means more things should be illegal.

And they are adverse because they are unhealthy for consumption. That a prison is unhealthy says more about the American prison system than the comparative health of narcotics.

There are a lot of responses I can't cover individually, so here is a thought experiment to extrapolate the restriction and legality issue further: why regulate anything? Why restrict anything? We can viably allow murder and rape to exist as well if gun laws have no regulation - every one is responsible for themselves, and forget the rest.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#88

Post by dylangs1030 »

r0s wrote: post #76
dylangs1030 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Crime would adjust itself, or find a new market. Compromising by legalizing something which has a purpose in being illegal is detrimental to solving the problem.

Bullshit. As if criminals simply avoid other vice because it's less profitable, totally false. Dangerously false. There are not open markets just floating around waiting for criminals to suddenly discover them.

I disagree. I believe there are plenty of avenues of criminal activity. Trouble is, most criminals aren't visionaries, and why would they have an incentive to fond other profitable crimes of they can practically earn money doing what they do now?

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#89

Post by jhuni »

gyardley wrote: post #32
rdl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to fight criminals at a scale where they threaten the state is through intelligence and military techniques, not law enforcement. Find them, build up decent evidence, kill them; don't try to prosecute. The risk is turning into a star chamber or right wing paramilitary, but I would trust the professionalism and morality of an organization like the us military to resist that. Plan Colombia worked out ok, c…

Decent evidence often isn't. Remember those 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq? 4,482 dead American soldiers and counting. I'm not saying these gangs aren't full of horrible people, and I'm not saying all branches of the US government and military aren't perfectly good intentioned and well-meaning people, but mistakes do get made - which is why we need some judicial oversight here. We've already got one war on an…

What makes someone "horrible"?

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#90

Post by dylangs1030 »

knieveltech wrote: post #85
dylangs1030 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And like I said, it might be a fiscal improvement to legalize drugs. You could earn money from it. But, and i mean this in all sincerity, do you want to live in a society where they're freely accessible?

If you live anywhere in North America, you're already living in a society where they're freely accessible, so in that respect prohibition has clearly failed. I understand we've all been propagandized to believe that drug use is inherently evil, however it's a mistake to lose site of the fact that (at least in the US) the prison system is largely a subcontracted for-profit industry. An industry with a clearly vested i…

I agree that rehabilitation is more important that penalization for drug abuse, but towards the original point, drugs aren't accessible in the sense that they're not legal. You cannot get them as easily as you can a gallon of milk.
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