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Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

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Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#11
post #6
post #2

It would. Yet there is no promising tech in this field. Hydrogen is supported only to draw support away from EVs. If hydrogen becomes inexpensive to produce, it will by by way of solar power used to generate it. It will never be easy to store. Hydrogen is the smallest element, and can move through solid objects over time. It is violently explosive. You think these EV fires you see all the time are bad? They're nothin…

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Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#12
post #9

Why are we all wrapped up with hydrogen when we already have a perfectly adequate hydrocarbon infrastructure? Sure, digging up old buried hydrocarbons and burning them isn't good, but couldn't we start synthesizing light hydrocarbons using green technology, so at least those usages are carbon neutral?

All of the synthetic light hydrocarbons (e-fuels) involve extra energy on top of the hydrogen production. Its pretty much right there in the name (hydro carbon). So for instance, we could make a ton of hydrogen and then burn it for energy, or we could make a ton of hydrogen, add in a few hundred kilos of carbon and more energy to produce e-fuels that we then burn for energy.

For logistics reasons it will almost certainly have its place, but because by definition it takes a greater energy investment than just the hydrogen, it will economically come after hydrogen production has been scaled to solve the cases where it is not logistically constrained.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#13

> the world will have to get better at balancing energy supply and demand so we don’t go dark when the sun isn’t shining or the wind isn’t blowing. Thanks Bill, that's really helpful, was there really no other way you could have phrased that? > Another option is to produce hydrogen using the current methods that burn fossil fuels and then capture the CO2 produced in the process before it’s released in the atmosphere.…

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Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#14
post #9

Why are we all wrapped up with hydrogen when we already have a perfectly adequate hydrocarbon infrastructure? Sure, digging up old buried hydrocarbons and burning them isn't good, but couldn't we start synthesizing light hydrocarbons using green technology, so at least those usages are carbon neutral?

That's really the same bag as hydrogen. Once you have hydrogen, you could then use power-to-gas technologies to get a more stable fuel. Of course you lose energy in the process, so you only do this if you need to.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#15

> the world will have to get better at balancing energy supply and demand so we don’t go dark when the sun isn’t shining or the wind isn’t blowing. Thanks Bill, that's really helpful, was there really no other way you could have phrased that? > Another option is to produce hydrogen using the current methods that burn fossil fuels and then capture the CO2 produced in the process before it’s released in the atmosphere.…

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Can you expand why separation from water is a net energy loss?

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#16

> the world will have to get better at balancing energy supply and demand so we don’t go dark when the sun isn’t shining or the wind isn’t blowing. Thanks Bill, that's really helpful, was there really no other way you could have phrased that? > Another option is to produce hydrogen using the current methods that burn fossil fuels and then capture the CO2 produced in the process before it’s released in the atmosphere.…

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Your first point doesn't make sense to me, there are transmission and discharge losses associated with batteries, but they're still practical for many use cases.

The amount of tolerable losses depends on how cheap the power is, if the power supply is intermittent, some time they'd be greatly in excess of standard loads, in which case you could run hydrogen cracking at 10% efficiency and it might still be useful just as grid ballast.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#17

Yeah, so would cheap nuclear power or cheap batteries. I find cheap batteries way more likely then either of those.

I think the current problem with batteries is that it presents a geopolitical risk that is akin to (maybe worse than) oil.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#18
It's too late for hydrogen. For hydrogen to be green is has to either A) be more green than storing the generating power in batteries and using it from there or B) be created with something other than electricity. It's too late for A, batteries are already too good. As for B), feel free to come up with some kind of metamaterial that can produce hydrogen mechanically and in doing so bypass the efficiency loss of electrolysis.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#19
I think the thing with hydrogen that people miss is that you have to accept that there will be huge energy losses. But then also have to remember that hydrogen allows you to easily handle and transport energy in the form of stable hydrocarbon fuels (if combined with power-to-gas) for example. Maybe something like scaling a solar farm to 300% of needed capacity and then combining it with hydrogen storage/transportation, might be financially viable.

Re: Cheap, green hydrogen would be a breakthrough in clean energy

#20

> the world will have to get better at balancing energy supply and demand so we don’t go dark when the sun isn’t shining or the wind isn’t blowing. Thanks Bill, that's really helpful, was there really no other way you could have phrased that? > Another option is to produce hydrogen using the current methods that burn fossil fuels and then capture the CO2 produced in the process before it’s released in the atmosphere.…

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> separate it from water, which is a net energy LOSS

This is true of every form of energy transfer. There is never, ever 100% energy maintained, and maybe you'll be stunned at how inefficient existing energy sources are.

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