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Sex is going out of fashion?

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Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#451
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Touching the poop in these threads is always a bad idea. And this is more to the passer-by who might be reading and thinking that the person to whom I am replying is onto something (edited; I don't think 'csee is being disingenuous). In these sorts of claims, "the top few percent" is never actually defined, and it means that folks who do quite well for themselves but aren't unironically studly chads have to be cut ou…

You give good advice but I was commenting on the well documented asymmetry and inequality in outcomes that cut across gender lines which are likely magnified by these dating apps. It's not bitterness to point out objective facts that are highly relevant to the topic of conversation. "Improve yourself" is always the healthiest mindset on a personal level but that's not exactly deep analysis on the impact that these ap…

I dunno, from where I stand what you are defining as the problems of "lower ranked men" are symptoms of living in a late-capitalist society problems. It's not the app's fault that people respond to incentives; the way out, if "out" is to be defined as to find people who want to interact with you, to "not settle" or whatever, is to improve oneself. It can both suck and be the only option. Fortunately, it's a lot easier to be interesting than it is to be rich.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#452
post #21

Population implosion is going to be the biggest problem of our lives. It is one of those issues that creeps up progressively (like Global Warming), but will have cataclysmic impacts. Sex is a precursor to relationships and kids, if people don't have sex... Imagine 80% of the population is elderly and retired (or want to be retired) - that is where the world is heading by the end of the century. From 2018: https://www…

It's not a long term problem. To be utterly dispassionate about it, people who don't reproduce are voluntarily selecting themselves out of the gene pool, leaving behind those who genetically have a stronger drive to reproduce even under adverse circumstances. There's no moral or philosophical dimension to it; it's simply how the unfeeling mechanics of how nature works.

That type of selection would take way too long to manifest and make an actual difference in population numbers.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#453

I don't think the data they have is really as compelling as they think. It's self-reported from the National Opinion Research Center mostly. The trouble with self-reporting on things like sex is that (a) people lie about sex a lot and (b) social attitudes determine in what way people lie about sex. If you watch a sitcom from the 90s or early noughties, the idea that someone mightn't have had sex for _a few months_ is…

This "article" is an example of highly motivated reasoning. The first potential cause that he proposes of this "decades long 'phenomenon'" (yes, I'm doubing up on air quotes, sue me) is social distancing.

Since the actual text is nonsense, I think it is reasonable to substitute it with the subtext, "Men aren't men and haven't been since 1950, and it's because of the democrats". He's free to write an article about this, I suppose, but its definitely not "signal", as the mission statement of HN demands.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#454

There are so many incel type comments in this thread and anytime this subject comes up. Online dating definitely isn’t fun but it’s not the shit show people here seem to make out. All of my friends met their long terms partners on dating apps. None of these men are particularly attractive. All are average looking at best. Personally I went from never dating to going on dates with a handful of people over a 6 month pe…

I'm going to out myself a bit by making this comment, but I want to just say that you dismissing these comments as being "incel type" and saying that it's much ado about nothing is unfair and inaccurate. You are missing important context, and likely have a varied experience compared to these other people.

I was a home-owner at 26, make an outsized income compared to both the national average and my local average, am well-traveled, educated, and by conventional standards am at average or slightly above average attractiveness. Despite all of this, I had an absolutely horrible time with dating until I was in my 30s. I am now married to a wonderful woman I met 5 years ago through a dating app, after years of frustration.

The main thing I discovered in this journey is:

1. Older men (but not too old, 30s/40s) get better traction than younger men (teens, 20s), even if you are an outlier in success as a younger man

2. Women have a vastly different assessment of attractiveness than men do. There is TONS of data to support this, and it's basically incontrovertible at this point. I don't know if dating apps caused it, or it just revealed it, but women basically have a Pareto distribution of how they judge attractiveness. Only 20% of men pass the filter, the remaining 80% are never going to get a response. Men have a much more normal distribution (follows a bell curve) in how they view attractiveness.

3. The two things above mean that a (relatively) small number of men have success, and don't see the problem, while a (relatively) large amount of men are left out in the cold.

You might think my 3 points above sound "incel type", yet I'm a married guy who absolutely supports the rights of women and their equality in society. This is not about politics, this is not about misogyny, this is not about frustration turning to anger. This is about the facts and the lived experience of millions of people, especially younger people, and how it drives societal trends. I watch many of friends who also work in tech struggling still even in their 30s because they are conventionally less attractive than I am, despite being better than me in other ways (smarter, more financially successful), and these are by the general standards of the day successful and stable people who cannot find a relationship. People who are farther down the income and intelligence curve struggle even further. This article didn't come out of nowhere, and this issue isn't only in the US. All over the OECD we are seeing falling birth rates, falling marriage rates, and self-reported reductions in sexual activity and relationships.

What this means for society and our future, I don't know, but it will certainly mean a change of some kind. Sticking your head in the sand and deriding the people stating these things clearly does not do anything to understand or address this situation. If you personally faced no challenges in using online dating, then I would put forward that you are probably privileged in some way you don't realize and that your experience is unusual, rather than being the norm.

One challenge many people haven't even mentioned yet in these comment threads is that online dating is fundamentally not a very good way to approach finding a relationship, and there is a different between "dating" for hookups and dating for finding a relationship. Most people are not satisfied with hookups, even when they can get them, and would prefer the more meaningful relationship. There are thankfully a few better apps in that direction, but as a general case an app is not a good basis for selecting someone to know on a deeper level, as apps emphasize the most shallow and curated view of people rather than the process of meeting people organically through shared activities. When I was dating, I found far more success organically meeting people vs using apps, despite the fact that I ended up meeting my wife through an app.

This doesn't just affect dating, it effects all sorts of relationships. We've decided somehow as a society to intermediate a screen between us and other people in nearly every single situation, and this form of communication is inherently lossy and biased towards appearances over realities, and it has caused a structural loss of community and the actual social skills in people necessary to meet and create connections. To look at our society as it currently sits, see the trend line of where it's going, and then to deride the people pointing it out as "incel type" seems deeply naive if not pernicious.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#455

Wonder if this is related to the lack of personal relationships in general, especially friendships. There is an epidemic of loneliness in the world. So many ways to communicate and all we can do is post memes and upvote influencers. I am happily married but have zero friends. I met my wife through my friend group in college. If I heaven forbid got a divorce tomorrow, not sure where I would meet someone new. Guess I w…

Three years ago a HN user named Dexwiz wrote something that hit me hard. I'd felt this, but I never saw it put in to words so well. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20470085 """ The Screen and the Job have displaced almost everything else is our lives. Loneliness is just a primary symptom. The Screen, whether it’s TV, computer, or phone, has supplanted almost all social interactions. This manifests itself in thin…

Well, not entirely. I moved to be able to have a family (more child-friendly & car-friendly environment) and found a better job.

But then I realize I'm extremely privileged as a programmer and that most people don't have that choice (and even for me, the choices are limited, NYC > London > Zürich > Ljubljana with each step at least 2x difference in compensation)

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really just don’t believe that Even in like 2000s when this trend started? I was a kid so maybe it was harder for women then but really? There are lots of ugly women too, who are they going to date?

Ugly women can get laid as much as they want on dating apps

Yep. Look up pig woman or that one experiment where they called Eggy “Christine”

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#457

I think the wide spread use of opioids has some to do with it too.(Mouse Utopia) Definitely kills your sex drive.. Low testosterone kills it. Getting old.. Partner not keeping up their physique.. Chronic pain.. Lots to do with it.. I still find the same attributes attractive as I did when I was 18, now being over 40/married/chronic pain/long term opioid use... it has degraded the pool of possibilities and who I would…

No post body was provided.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#458
post #404

The harsh reality is that around 30% of men are completely unfuckable. They only got action because women needed to be married because they couldn’t support themselves. Ugly men have 0 value in the dating market beyond money.

Not to mention tons of people don’t even make realistic efforts (see: incels)

Women get bombarded with offers for sex when they put in 0 effort. Why blame men for not trying? If you have to try then it’s already over..

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#459

A lot of sex is not that great and therefore any overall reduction of sex may be a good thing, depending on which kind of sex we're having less of. Maybe a lot more married women are not having sex with their husbands, which traditionally was not always an option. Maybe young people are rushing less into big relationships, and so without a steady partner regular opportunities for sex are reduced while at the same tim…

It's not just sex that is decreasing though, it's all forms of physical contact. Social interactions are decreasing in real life, so it's deeper than what your reply suggests.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#460
Courtship has been out of fashion for years, so it's not much of a surprise that sex has followed suit. Once upon a time before the age of the internet, people had a limited amount of interests to pursue, popular culture was limited to 4 TV channels and about 10 radio stations, and they kept in mind the fact that being in a relationship requires both parties to find mutual interests to enjoy together. You shouldn't expect sex from another person if you can't even figure out how to be friends with them, and you shouldn't HAVE sex with them if you don't enjoy each other's company on a regular basis.

Nowadays we have funkopop wielding weebs trying to find their perfect waifu while girls are obsessing over Korean boy bands who barely speak their own language. There's no interest overlap. People don't even try.

People are simultaneously too picky and not picky enough. I know a woman who will date a man across the country but won't date one who is under 5'11" or over 6'3". The reasoning? She's 5'8" and wants to be able to wear heels.

And while I will never set foot in a church again unless it's for a wedding or funeral, denominational association did a decent job of figuring out what the foundations of people's morality and culture is. It's hard for a Southern Baptist to understand the whats and whys of Roman Catholicism, for example. By the same token, part of the reason that we've culturally evolved rites of inclusion is so that people feel included... and we are now abandoning them because it's easy to sit in a cave staring at a tiny screen while ordering from doordash and amazon than it is to deal with our fellow humans.

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