Live data from Hacker News

The integrated timetable of Switzerland

jokteur.com

151–160 of 162 posts

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible for train A and train B to arrive at the same time, and depart at the same time, allowing convenient transfers in both directions. From my brief experience on Swiss railways, I found this arrangement to be quite common.

A train usually stops at the station for only around a minute, so there is no time to change to another platform unless another train arrives later. There are some trains that stop at the big train station for a longer period of time, so it might theoretically be possible. I live in Switzerland and I don't remember ever changing trains like that (though maybe I just didn't notice).

Intercity trains in Switzerland do stop for longer periods. This is a basic feature of the network to facilitate transfers.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#152
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone seems to have a half price card except tourists. I think this is designed to get subsidize tourists less, because otherwise Swiss rail and metro prices appear twice as much as other European countries.

Tourists have access to tourist-only specials though, which make up for that, I think: https://www.sbb.ch/en/leisure-holidays/inspiration/internati...

You need to do a lot of train travel to amortize those costs. If you just need to take the train from Geneva airport to Lausanne and then maybe the metro a couple of times, it won't be worth it.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#153
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Man it costs a lot of money to maintain this, but Switzerland will continue to invest heavily into rail service, backed by the public: https://www.bav.admin.ch/bav/en/home/modes-of-transport/rail ... Isn’t it paid for through ticket fees? Or is it subsidized by the state?

The Swiss rail company, SBB, is owned by the state. In 2021 it made a loss of 325 million CHF, which is about 3.3% of its total turnover. So it's paid mostly through ticket fees and for a small part by the state.

Define "loss" here. As far as I can tell, the Swiss franc is a sovereign fiat currency which lost any association to a gold standard by means of public referendum. The "cost" is effectively zero as it is part of the general economy available to the nation-state of Switzerland, and fits into the larger monetary and fiscal policy of the country.

I have never considered the "cost" of a government service to be representative of anything unless an analysis of social benefits is likewise included. For instance the entire discourse around the USPS during the last US presidential election.

Clearly, the train system is net-profitable for the country or they would shut it down, so calling it a "loss" seems inaccurate.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#154
post #98
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same train almost everyday for over a year? I'm sorry but the CFF loves smelling their own farts talking about how great they are but let's be honest here the Romandie part gets treated like a second class citizen. The trains are dirty, I remember seeing the same goop and grime on an inside train wall for over a month (I'm very consistent with my train timing so I ended up mostly taking the same train). The train…

> second class citizen As far as I know, investments in particular in local and regional trains is heavily driven by cantonal investments. For example ZVV (Zürcher Verkehrsverbund) contracts the S-Bahn network from SBB and finances a good part of its operations. While Zurich's network is therefore quite excelent, I am not sure other cantons invest at similar levels and therefore enjoy a worse experience.

No Zurich doesn't invest more they just prepay and ask the SBB for the money back, which is a way to force investment there. Both base tunnels were paid by whole CH but don't really benefit western Switzerland which has to use the most underfunded line between Geneva and Lausanne (2nd and 4th cities by size). If there any kind of issue on the 2 tracks the traffic between the cities is blocked. About half of the train are late, as there is way too much traffic and a single glitch everything crumble. Some works created a big hole andthe line was cut for 3 weeks. nobody in the Swiss German part gave a heck about it. If the line between Bern and Zurich (with no backup) was cut for 3 weeks it would be a national drama… If you don't believe me, just look at the stats regarding late train between Western Switzerland and the rest of the country. It's very telling.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintaing a car (bottom line) in Switzerland hits you with a minimum of 800 Franks a month, or almost 10'000 Franks a year. A first class Generalabonnement is virtually half the price of that. So, no. It's certainly not cheaper to drive.

Would you mind sharing your numbers? I recently tried to figure out how much my car costs me but it was less than half of your 10'000, so I'm wondering - either I missed something, or you have a rather expensive car.

If you take the deductable tax rate per kilometer, which is 70 Rappen[0], and assume 15000 kilometers a year you get 10'500 Francs per year

If you Google the question you find a variety of answers, but I think looking at it from the tax man's perspective is a good start.

I agree that the cost nay vary, but it can also be significantly higher than 1K per month, depending on the model of car, yearly kilometers and your risk from an insurance perspective.

[0] That's the rate you can deduct from your taxable income per kilometer if you use a private car for work purposes.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#156
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that Switzerland maintains this level of punctuality in addition to connecting the entire country, down to the village. That "down to the village" bit is the part that very few other public transport systems in the world have managed to get right, including those alternatives in your list. Of course, as you say this is about trusting the published statistics from the country itself. In the case of Switze…

Because they way Switzerland is structured both in terms of administration and geography I don't think that a village in Switzerland is equivalent to a village in most other countries. Presumably the canton system results in more smaller cities and large villages, and the terrain means they are in a limited number of places. The largest cities are all within 100 km of each other. While a single trip in a large countr…

> The largest cities are all within 100 km of each other.

They're not.

Zurich is 225km from Lausanne and 125km from Bern. Geneva is 254km from Basel, 371km from Lugano, 265km from Lucerne and 277km from Zurich.

I think the opposite of your claim is closer to the truth (though it also has exceptions) than your claim.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to admit I don't fully understand the issue you're talking about, but I'd like to find out more. Could you give an example? I've booked trains entirely via DB from Basel Bad Bf to Copenhagen, for example, but perhaps you mean something else?

I think they mean if you wanted to book a multi-leg trip of which only one leg is DB operated, it's a mess to coordinate and buy for different operators. (I have no experience with this, but that's my interpretation of the comment.)

Some examples:

- Cologne – Bruxelles is served by both DB and Thalys. In principle both operators run in alternating hours and taken together you get an hourly service [1] between the two cities. Unfortunately for quite a few years now, Thalys has withdrawn its through-ticketing arrangements and so you can no longer buy through-tickets involving Thalys and a connection on the German side. If you buy the tickets separately, you've got no guarantees that your ticket will remain valid in case of a missed connection. (Thalys still participates in Railteam and HOTNAT, but that only applies to connection between high-speed long-distance trains, so if your connection involves some other kind of train, too bad).

- It also means (apart from the fact that Thalys requires mandatory reservations) they're semi-useless for domestic journeys (beyond Cologne, Thalys trains usually continue through to Dortmund), because in the case of delays or cancellations your ticket won't be valid on alternative DB services. If you're lucky they'll take you on a goodwill basis, otherwise you'd have to either wait for the next Thalys (only every two hours and with some larger gaps!) or pay for a DB ticket out of your own pocket and claim the money back afterwards.

- The services between Paris and Germany via the LGV Est are operated in cooperation between SNCF and DB, so luckily both operators will sell tickets for all services on that line, no matter whether they're TGV or ICE services. It's still not perfect however, because (at least online?) DB won't sell tickets involving a connection in France, while SNCF won't sell tickets involving a connection in Germany. So if you don't live in one of the larger cities directly served by the through trains (I live near that line in Germany, but technically I first still need to take a local train first for three stops or so) and need to go somewhere in France other than Strasbourg or Paris, you still can't get a through ticket.

- Through tickets to Italy are equally problematic. Maybe things are slightly better at a booking office, but at least online playing around with international-bahn.de it looks like the above, i.e. DB/ÖBB won't sell tickets involving connections in Italy and vice versa for FS.

- international-bahn.de is happy to sell you combined tickets, but its FAQs also say that those don't necessarily count as a through ticket and in the case of missed connections you might have to depend on the goodwill of the operators involved.

- For a few years now it seems that there is at least the so called Agreement on Journey Continuation (see https://www.seat61.com/european-train-travel.htm#AJC), which is at least a step in the right direction and is better than nothing, but that agreement is

a) still somewhat obscure, and

b) effectively still a somewhat more formalised goodwill arrangement, with the exact details and regulations not (!) being made public and remaining a secret among the participating railways

c) also doesn't cover all operators, e.g. Thalys doesn't participate, and neither do some of the large open access operators that exist in e.g. Italy, Austria, or the Czech Republic

And like I mentioned previously, in Germany technically the law asks all railways to work together in creating fares for through-ticketing (§12 AEG), but especially as far as long distance trains are concerned this obligation seems to have been mostly forgotten.

[1] Albeit with some gaps, especially on Thalys's side. I don't know whether those gaps are a recent, Covid-induced phenomenon, or have been present for a while longer.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing your numbers? I recently tried to figure out how much my car costs me but it was less than half of your 10'000, so I'm wondering - either I missed something, or you have a rather expensive car.

If you take the deductable tax rate per kilometer, which is 70 Rappen[0], and assume 15000 kilometers a year you get 10'500 Francs per year If you Google the question you find a variety of answers, but I think looking at it from the tax man's perspective is a good start. I agree that the cost nay vary, but it can also be significantly higher than 1K per month, depending on the model of car, yearly kilometers and your…

Thanks, that clarifies things. The number makes sense as a rough average (which would make sense for the taxes), calling it a 'minimum' was what confused me a little.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they mean if you wanted to book a multi-leg trip of which only one leg is DB operated, it's a mess to coordinate and buy for different operators. (I have no experience with this, but that's my interpretation of the comment.)

Some examples: - Cologne – Bruxelles is served by both DB and Thalys. In principle both operators run in alternating hours and taken together you get an hourly service [1] between the two cities. Unfortunately for quite a few years now, Thalys has withdrawn its through-ticketing arrangements and so you can no longer buy through-tickets involving Thalys and a connection on the German side. If you buy the tickets separ…

Thank you for the detailed comment! I can say I've had good experiences on connections between Germany and Denmark, Germany and Switzerland, and Germany and the Netherlands, including regarding missed connections, but it sounds like the situation isn't so great when it comes to other countries/operators.

Re: The integrated timetable of Switzerland

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are pros and cons to both structures. Villages in Switzerland are well separated by geography that is physically difficult to overcome (i.e. mountains), even if the distances are not big. It's way easier to lay down a flat, long rail between 2 cities in, say, the US or Mexico than it is to do the same in Switzerland. The structure would probably need to change for larger countries though, it's true. But…

The really smaller villages in the mountains are only connected by postal bus. The villages in the valley and what I could call small towns are connected by train, but it is far from ubiquitous.

True, the density gets much lower in the villages and especially those in the mountains. But for the average person in _most_ of the Swiss villages there is some connection they can take to get to where they need to go (though it may not always be the fastest, depending on where you live)
Post reply on HN