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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#641

Post by azangru »

cycomanic wrote: post #627
jgaa wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offering someone you don't know a senior position without some kind of insight into their level of competence is just a lottery. I've screened a number of very senior developers with impressive CV's applying for senior C++ positions. When I look at their code, usually it just sucks. More often than not it's just plain old C code with C++ dressing. For example, using pthreads in stead of C++11 std::thread, and mostly…

> Offering someone you don't know a senior position without some kind of insight into their level of competence is just a lottery. So what do you think the rest of the world does? Mechanical, civil, electrical engineering, lawyers, doctors, HR, managers? What makes software so special?

The rest of the world does different things, and software isn't that special.

For many jobs, the world outsources candidate quality assessment to trusted academic institutions and certification boards. But the software industry has decided — perhaps rightly — that software engineers do not have to go the traditional route of getting a tertiary education attested to by diplomas and certificates.

So rather than comparing with doctors and lawyers, you need to look at what the rest of the world is doing with professions that lack institutional gatekeeping. For example, it's pretty common for translators to do tests before they are offered a job. An agile consultancy described in a podcast how they are hiring scrum masters — and there is a combination of checking the certificates (PSM3's are fast-tracked to a final interview) and tests (seeing how a candidate scrum master can run a scrum event with a team). I am sure there will be lots of similar examples in other areas.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#642

Post by jillesvangurp »

This looks like a funnel designed to get rid of all qualified people.

Get rid of your recruiter because they obviously lack access to senior resumes, which is not surprising. I long stopped even replying to recruiters as have many others that I know that are properly senior. Most qualified people don't deal with recruiters at all if they can avoid it. And there is no shortage of very lucrative good jobs to be had. Alternatives: get your senior people attending conferences and local meetups. Make sure there's a referral program. Treat incoming referrals with urgency. Those are your best shot at hiring good people. Don't scare them away with your bureaucracy. If anyone good comes along, be ready to act fast.

And of course skip the take home exam; it's usually completely redundant, humiliating, and candidates hate them. The best ones doubly so and they'll probably tell you so. The ones least eager to take that test are exactly the people you should be making an offer. Probably your recruiter is losing those candidates long before you even get to talk to them.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#645

Post by krageon »

pnathan wrote: post #231
capableweb wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you get from a whiteboard/take home assignment that you can't get from a conversation where you grill them about their answers?

Conversations allow smooth talkers to run a snow job on you. Having a work sample test provides a best-in-class hiring filter.

If you are not capable of dealing with charisma, you shouldn't be doing the interviews at all.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#646

Post by krageon »

bstpierre wrote: post #470
apeace wrote: post #254

If you're having this problem, your first step is to get the recruiter out of the process. Start screening all resumes yourself. I've had some bad experiences with recruiters, both in-house and otherwise, and I feel they usually get screenings wrong. But there's an even more important reason for you to take over this process now: you don't know where your dropoff is. You need to get familiar with what's going on. Are…

> You said "benefits and salary are good", but literally the only reason to not list these things in a posting is if they're not actually that good. The other reason I have seen a reluctance to put salary in a job posting is that some companies may not want their current employees to know how much the new hires are getting.

Thankfully both of those issues indicate a company where nobody should work, because they're toxic.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#647

Post by bodge5000 »

> No listed salary

> Long interview process

> Standard benefits (I'm guessing this, but if you were offering a 4-day work week or something, you'd probably mention it)

The market is extremely busy right now, overwhelming actually. If a candidate wants to get through it with any time left, they'll need to apply filters, and the busier the market is, the harsher those filters need to be. A candidate who can only apply for 3 jobs at a time will do so whether the market is offering 3 jobs or 300.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#648

Post by thraxil »

cwilkes wrote: post #597
bigiain wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alternatively, perhaps pay people to complete the assignments. That doesn't solve the majority of the "senior position" problem. Like you point out, your schedule does not have a "spare" 4 hour block in it, and paying you $1000 to find one is not going to make you jump at the opportunity if the alternative is a different role that is not asking for a 4 hour block of your family time. Anybody recruiting for "senior…

But going onsite or remote interviewing for 4 hours is more reasonable? Looking at the original post they have a 4 hour at home coding assignment that’s followed up by a group presentation. I’m guessing that one is an hour or so. Figure another hour or two to prepare for that. It doesn’t seem like it is much off from a typical 5-6 hour on site interview. Plus I think you can get more of a signal about how they can ex…

The advantage of interviews at least is that it's two-way. That's time out of their day as well as mine. When I'm interviewing at a company, I'm also interviewing them to see if I want to work for them. Doing a take-home assignment is completely one sided. It takes up my time but basically none of theirs and it gives them information about me, but not the other way around.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#649

Post by matsemann »

apeace wrote: post #254

If you're having this problem, your first step is to get the recruiter out of the process. Start screening all resumes yourself. I've had some bad experiences with recruiters, both in-house and otherwise, and I feel they usually get screenings wrong. But there's an even more important reason for you to take over this process now: you don't know where your dropoff is. You need to get familiar with what's going on. Are…

It may vary from market. But here in Norway, I get cold-called or cold-emailed by multiple recruiters a week. They are all useless. They know little of the role outside the ad. They can't answer any questions. The only "value" they provide is spamming people and annoying them.

So I'm boycotting every company using an external recruiter to contact me unsolicited.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#650

Post by gus75 »

ls15 wrote: post #626
hackyhacky wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who teaches CS at a reputable university, I can state with certainty that we graduate a lot of students who have no clue how to code. As someone who used to do hiring for a small company, I can state that a lot of people who have degrees have no clue how to code. Until our field gets the equivalent of a bar exam or NBME, each employer has to evaluate candidates on their own.

CS != coding, but CS combined with coding practice is an excellent basis. Now, how many of those graduates that managed to work in a software development job afterwards can still not code a couple of years later?

I did quite a bit of recruiting for a software team in a large company. I can tell you that years of experience do not guarantee good quality code.
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