> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.
Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
611–620 of 794 posts
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#612> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#613> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.
I've screened a number of very senior developers with impressive CV's applying for senior C++ positions. When I look at their code, usually it just sucks. More often than not it's just plain old C code with C++ dressing. For example, using pthreads in stead of C++11 std::thread, and mostly avoiding even the C++ standard library.
When I interview people, I usually ask them to write some code, for 4 to 6 hours, to solve whatever problem they find interesting, to show me; a) their level of understanding of the C++ language and libraries, b) how they solve problems (I prefer low complexity) and c) what they find interesting.
The interview + the code they show me, give me an idea about their qualifications in this specific area. It's still a lottery to hire someone, but the odds for a winning ticket is a little better ;)
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#614Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s easy really. Walk. As a senior it’s insulting to expect to do a four hour take home test. When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook? Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery? It’s absolutely asinine that we accept this behavior in our industry. You’d be laughed at by every possible candidate in other industries.
> When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook? > Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery? These are both poor examples. These are both credentialed examples. Both have already demonstrated their skill based on the credentials they hold. Software development is not a credentialed field. Titles vary wildly - especially at startups where titles inflate.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#615Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Exactly where in that schedule am I supposed to fit a FOUR HOUR coding assignment. That's ridiculous. Unless you're providing child care, this is simply too much. What do you do for normal on-site interviews or phone interviews that have similar time demands? I’m also a parent of small children with a packed schedule, but I’d much rather take a 4-hour take home and handle it on the weekend or when I’m flexible. Giv…
It’s easy really. Walk. As a senior it’s insulting to expect to do a four hour take home test. When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook? Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery? It’s absolutely asinine that we accept this behavior in our industry. You’d be laughed at by every possible candidate in other industries.
And a surgeon needs accreditation from the state.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#616> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.
Hardware companies manage to hire people without giving them assignments all the time (lets not even talk about management, HR, counsel ...), what makes software companies so special that they have to do it, except maybe that they can?
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#617Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook? > Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery? These are both poor examples. These are both credentialed examples. Both have already demonstrated their skill based on the credentials they hold. Software development is not a credentialed field. Titles vary wildly - especially at startups where titles inflate.
Shouldn't a CS degree from a reputable university then just replace all the screening that is made for people without relevant degrees?
As someone who used to do hiring for a small company, I can state that a lot of people who have degrees have no clue how to code.
Until our field gets the equivalent of a bar exam or NBME, each employer has to evaluate candidates on their own.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#618You should be spending hours each day looking for, reaching out, and networking.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#619Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…
"The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids" Is 4 hours the amount of time the candidate is being given to complete it, or roughly how long the employer expects it will take? In the past I've generally come up with tests I know can be done in an hour or so (2 tops), but allowed 24 hours, exactly because not everyone is going to be in a position they can dedicate those 2 hour…
> Is 4 hours the amount of time the candidate is being given to complete it, or roughly how long the employer expects it will take? In the past I've generally come up with tests I know can be done in an hour or so (2 tops),
Have you actually given these assignments to some of your colleagues and asked them to complete and how long it took (including setting up the development environment ...)? People are notoriously bad at estimating time it takes someone else to do something that oneself is intimately familiar with. So I would not be surprised that the assignments took more like 2-4 h, if you add the additional time for context switching, organising to free your schedule etc..
> but allowed 24 hours, exactly because not everyone is going to be in a position they can dedicate those 2 hours to it right there and then.
I don't think the GP was implying that the assignment was to be done right there and then, where and when would you do those 2 h in their schedule?
> Sure, those that did take the full 24 hours to complete I tended to apply higher expectations towards when judging,
So for someone with kids etc., who couldn't do the assignment straight away you actually expected more than 2h worth of work? To me that's already a red flag that you don't respect peoples life-work balance.
> but at the end of the day it didn't make much difference - the tests were only to weed out those that had clearly made a poor career decision (and there were surprisingly many of those, to the point we switched to testing before interviewing).
Unless you offer exceptionally high salary or are a highly desirable place to work at, you are likely not getting the best applicants.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#620> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.
The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…