POST THE SALARY. Senior people are senior because of their work experience, which they gain from steady employment. Almost by definition you are looking to entice busy, employed people away from their current jobs. They don’t have the time or inclination to trawl through job ad after job ad. Where your competition will ask for 15 years of experience and then only after hours of calls and meetings reluctantly make an…
I've tried to advocate for this at my organization and been told that we don't want people primarily motivated by money...
Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
581–590 of 794 posts
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#582Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's set aside whether it's explicitly screened for or discussed. If, hypothetically, you knew what they were making, either as a dollar figure or implicitly because of their previous/current job description, what would be the minimum? I'm asking something which necessarily has an answer, even if you won't answer it. I'm asking about the limits to your imagination - where is the boundary between a plausible hire and…
I don't even know how to respond to your line of thinking here. You've already stated that if I tell you the truth, then I'm lying, because the truth isn't true. You clearly have an issue you've experienced that bothers you, and you are critically concerned with it. That makes sense. Best of luck to you. It doesn't change the reality which is in my case, in the situation I'm discussing, the previous salary of the per…
I'm not calling you a liar, if you say that you don't explicitly consider previous salary.
But you consider things that are correlated with previous salary. Everybody does, and that's why salary is sticky over time.
Think of it as an output, instead of an input.
I'm asking for you to consciously consider what you might be doing. I don't know! So of course I can't legitimately tell you (accuse you) of anything specific.
But how often do you, say, hire someone whose current job is, say, at a Best Buy retail location? Or someone without a college degree?
I am not pursuing some idea of fairness - I am suggesting that if you are not getting what you want, there is some kind of self-defeating aspect of the current process.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#583Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#584Earlier quoted context omitted.
Take home test as the first step in an interview process is the ultimate evil in this. I've spent hours then got ghosted. I will never do it again. This is a "run like hell" signal imo.
I've heard that before, and if we felt there was a significant risk we were putting off good devs from applying, I'd reverse that decision. But I like to think we made our tests a fun & interesting enough challenge that applicants were happy to spend the time doing them.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#585Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay so now we're hiring a hiring manager and a developer, great. ...or maybe people in this thread just don't like having to prove they know things in an industry where a lot of people don't know things.
More like we're tired of having to "prove we know something" to people who have no clue what they're talking about (most recruiters). Further, there are probably lots of software engineers that have _never touched_ your framework of choice and will be able to learn and become proficient with it in a manner of weeks.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#586Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#587I have done enough contracting that before you have finished the sentence, I have already worked out in my head the opportunity cost of 4 non-billable hours. And in return I get.... nothing. Now while it is true that 4 hours of on-site talking to people is still 4 hours out of my life, but at least then I get to meet the people I would be working with and have an opportunity to ask about the company. And you are showing respect for my time by spending your time getting to know me.
And what do you learn from a 4 hour homework assignment that any undergrad should be able to complete, when you can see from my resume multiple L5/L6 positions at different companies? Nothing at all about what you want a senior to actually do. The senior you need is the person who can mentor the juniors through a 4-month long (not 4 hour long) project. Review their architecture, guide it in wise directions. Review their code. Raise the bar on unit testing. Teach the entire organization about better validation methodologies. Create realistic schedules and rational work-streams. Evaluate new technologies.
As a candidate, my interpretation of your process is that I would be working for management that can't think about problems from first principals. You can't hire a senior because you aren't looking for a senior because, as evidenced by your process, you don't know what a senior does.
The first thing you need to do is articulate to yourself what you want a senior to bring to your organization. Structure your interview process to try to uncover those skills and behaviors in a candidate.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#588Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've heard that before, and if we felt there was a significant risk we were putting off good devs from applying, I'd reverse that decision. But I like to think we made our tests a fun & interesting enough challenge that applicants were happy to spend the time doing them.
This might be fine for hiring juniors but I can't imagine many experienced applicants would be interested in gambling their time away on your test before any interview.
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#589> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.
> Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I'm currently in between jobs, starting the new gig after the 4th of July holid…
Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it
#590- We combine steps 4 and 6. Our assignment presentation is 90min (which sometimes goes onto 2 hours) and the hiring manager is present in that call.
- Our take home assignment usually takes 4-6 hours to complete for a competent dev, but we let them do it across a week or so. They have a work life, family etc, and we let them balance that against the interview process. It's worked really well for us.
Edit: To add, we feel that a quicker feedback loop and turnaround time helps the candidate and make them aware of that. And we don't wish to compromise on the assignment - we would like to see their output after giving them sufficient space and time to complete it.