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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#581
post #326

POST THE SALARY. Senior people are senior because of their work experience, which they gain from steady employment. Almost by definition you are looking to entice busy, employed people away from their current jobs. They don’t have the time or inclination to trawl through job ad after job ad. Where your competition will ask for 15 years of experience and then only after hours of calls and meetings reluctantly make an…

I've tried to advocate for this at my organization and been told that we don't want people primarily motivated by money...

Why else would someone go to work for a for profit company?

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#582
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set aside whether it's explicitly screened for or discussed. If, hypothetically, you knew what they were making, either as a dollar figure or implicitly because of their previous/current job description, what would be the minimum? I'm asking something which necessarily has an answer, even if you won't answer it. I'm asking about the limits to your imagination - where is the boundary between a plausible hire and…

I don't even know how to respond to your line of thinking here. You've already stated that if I tell you the truth, then I'm lying, because the truth isn't true. You clearly have an issue you've experienced that bothers you, and you are critically concerned with it. That makes sense. Best of luck to you. It doesn't change the reality which is in my case, in the situation I'm discussing, the previous salary of the per…

You're bristling like I'm personally attacking you.

I'm not calling you a liar, if you say that you don't explicitly consider previous salary.

But you consider things that are correlated with previous salary. Everybody does, and that's why salary is sticky over time.

Think of it as an output, instead of an input.

I'm asking for you to consciously consider what you might be doing. I don't know! So of course I can't legitimately tell you (accuse you) of anything specific.

But how often do you, say, hire someone whose current job is, say, at a Best Buy retail location? Or someone without a college degree?

I am not pursuing some idea of fairness - I am suggesting that if you are not getting what you want, there is some kind of self-defeating aspect of the current process.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#583
40+ years (30+ professionally) here, and like others have said 4hrs take home is a real turn off. Having done a bunch of hiring myself using a bunch of techniques (some really bad!), what I like to do is get people to code interactively with me, I usually set a small task that should take https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Software%20and%20Game%2... and watch people code, you won't need 4 hours to work out who can program, you will likely have a good sense of what they can do in < 10-15 minutes (as long as they are actually coding, not chit chatting, or if they are learning a new language, might take a bit longer to work out), and within an hour you will get a pretty good sense of what they are like. So, optimize your interviewing process, try to engage the people so the interview is engaging and collaborative so that the interviewer / and candidate feel like they'd be working with someone they'd like to work with. Don't be too rigid about interview structure but be clear about the things you need to work out before giving them an offer.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take home test as the first step in an interview process is the ultimate evil in this. I've spent hours then got ghosted. I will never do it again. This is a "run like hell" signal imo.

I've heard that before, and if we felt there was a significant risk we were putting off good devs from applying, I'd reverse that decision. But I like to think we made our tests a fun & interesting enough challenge that applicants were happy to spend the time doing them.

This might be fine for hiring juniors but I can't imagine many experienced applicants would be interested in gambling their time away on your test before any interview.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so now we're hiring a hiring manager and a developer, great. ...or maybe people in this thread just don't like having to prove they know things in an industry where a lot of people don't know things.

More like we're tired of having to "prove we know something" to people who have no clue what they're talking about (most recruiters). Further, there are probably lots of software engineers that have _never touched_ your framework of choice and will be able to learn and become proficient with it in a manner of weeks.

Having just gone through this with yet another developer who couldn't learn the framework in a couple of weeks, I am sick and tired of hiring people I have to coddle for months on end, only to end up having them quit because I didn't screen them correctly.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#586
Just let go of the 4h assignment. I know it seems like the perfect process for the company: introductory talk, assessment, talk, offer/negotiation. However, in reality that's for Juniors who need to prove their knowledge and have the time to do it. Seniors don't have that much time and good ones can show what they know in a 1-1:30 talk. Sorry if I've put it bluntly, just trying to help.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#587
From my perspective as what you might call a super-senior, I find this process itself a giant red flag. It is aimed towards recruiting juniors.

I have done enough contracting that before you have finished the sentence, I have already worked out in my head the opportunity cost of 4 non-billable hours. And in return I get.... nothing. Now while it is true that 4 hours of on-site talking to people is still 4 hours out of my life, but at least then I get to meet the people I would be working with and have an opportunity to ask about the company. And you are showing respect for my time by spending your time getting to know me.

And what do you learn from a 4 hour homework assignment that any undergrad should be able to complete, when you can see from my resume multiple L5/L6 positions at different companies? Nothing at all about what you want a senior to actually do. The senior you need is the person who can mentor the juniors through a 4-month long (not 4 hour long) project. Review their architecture, guide it in wise directions. Review their code. Raise the bar on unit testing. Teach the entire organization about better validation methodologies. Create realistic schedules and rational work-streams. Evaluate new technologies.

As a candidate, my interpretation of your process is that I would be working for management that can't think about problems from first principals. You can't hire a senior because you aren't looking for a senior because, as evidenced by your process, you don't know what a senior does.

The first thing you need to do is articulate to yourself what you want a senior to bring to your organization. Structure your interview process to try to uncover those skills and behaviors in a candidate.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#588
post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that before, and if we felt there was a significant risk we were putting off good devs from applying, I'd reverse that decision. But I like to think we made our tests a fun & interesting enough challenge that applicants were happy to spend the time doing them.

This might be fine for hiring juniors but I can't imagine many experienced applicants would be interested in gambling their time away on your test before any interview.

Actually I've never been heavily involved in hiring a junior. Even at my own level (>26 years prof. experience) I'd happily do a test before a formal interview (though I'd likely want a brief chat with someone from the company to get a feel for what sort of shop they run first). And I would be judging the employer on the quality of their test.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#589
post #84
post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

> Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I'm currently in between jobs, starting the new gig after the 4th of July holid…

The further along in your career, the more network matters. My wife and I both find that to be true.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#590
Technical manager here. We have a similar process (although for a programming-heavy role) and getting a decent flow of applicants passing through. Some deviations though from your way:

- We combine steps 4 and 6. Our assignment presentation is 90min (which sometimes goes onto 2 hours) and the hiring manager is present in that call.

- Our take home assignment usually takes 4-6 hours to complete for a competent dev, but we let them do it across a week or so. They have a work life, family etc, and we let them balance that against the interview process. It's worked really well for us.

Edit: To add, we feel that a quicker feedback loop and turnaround time helps the candidate and make them aware of that. And we don't wish to compromise on the assignment - we would like to see their output after giving them sufficient space and time to complete it.

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