We are removing the option to create new subscriptions • Hacker News Board

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#161

Post by htgb » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

kvathupo wrote: post #97

Arubis wrote: post #38

My only concern with Mullvad is that, as their profile and reputation increase, they become a bigger target. That’s mostly a vote of confidence, though the concern is a real one.

Perhaps a Swede can chime in, but I'd imagine Sweden has a lax regulatory approach, e.g. compare the fates of PRQ and Megaupload. It's, admittedly inexplicably, concerning that we've driven people to foreign companies (from American ones) due to government surveillance. It begs the question: under what conditions would a consumer be fine ceding privacy? Transparency? Remuneration?

Not really. See the trial against the founders of The Pirate Bay for example, and the controversies surrounding it. Also, the FRA surveillance. Also, according to the ISP Bahnhof, the police at least used to submit lots of data requests without a court order and for non-serious crimes.

AIUI, Bahnhof and other VPN providers stay in the clear by avoiding storage of data in the first place. They can be compelled to hand over any data they have, but not to log any additional data. (ISPs etc are forced to log more data IIRC.)

At least there's nothing like the Australian laws for forcing and gagging developers.

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#162

Post by mechanical_bear » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:09 PM UTC

sdfhdhjdw3 wrote: post #118

rglover wrote: post #27

Wow. Hadn't heard of Mullvad before reading this, figured I'd give it a try. That is hands down the BEST onboarding experience for an app (let alone a VPN) I've had in I don't know how long. Took me maybe 2 minutes to go from no account to a working VPN connection. I love that everything is anonymous (down to the account credentials just being a randomly generated token).

> Hadn't heard of Mullvad before reading this Just the only vpn with any integrity left remaining, no biggie.

Protonvpn?

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#163

Post by dcow » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #122

dcow wrote: post #116

Why are VPNs what people flock to when they think they want privacy? Moreover they kinda break the internet so it's not a scalable solution. It's cool to see a good one selling a privacy message and doing it at level 11, but it seems kinda disingenuous to me to tell users that they're more private because they use a VPN. Private from your current ISP, sure, but not from Mullvad (they're your new ISP, you're just movi…

It's just one of the many layers of good opsec of you care about privacy. You shouldn't rely on this alone. And breaking the internet? I think centralisation by parties like Amazon, Google, CloudFlare does that a lot more. And if you want you can even send them cash in an envelope. Or monero or whatever.

I don't disagree that centralized services are also bad for the internet, but that's not a rebuttal to my point (also, what is a VPN service if not a "centralized ISP with different egress options"). A VPN does not add a layer of privacy. That's a misunderstanding of the concept and unfortunately a popular one even among security folks and even more-so among security marketing folks. A VPN allows you to effectively choose a different ISP. You are not private from Mullvad. You just have their promise that they're better and more transparent than your alternatives and that they won't sell your DNS queries and connection logs to advertisers. It's not bad to align with an ISP that shares your values, but it's not privacy outright.

> And if you want you can even send them cash in an envelope. Or monero or whatever.

So why not only allow payments in privacy perfect currency if they're so concerned about privacy?

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#164

Post by sascha_sl » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

Mullvad already did this for anyone who wanted port forwards, because those people are more likely to be the target of legal demands.

They seem to never actually associate the account number with any payments except at the moment the account gains time. This keeps them from having to respond to any legal demands with useful data.

I wonder if the iOS subscriptions are affected. Technically they could just not associate your payment with your account number. Then the app can submit the transaction ID and your account number that was stored locally to the service to extend your time.

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#165

Post by nijave » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

hihihihi1234 wrote: post #147

sdfhdhjdw3 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hadn't heard of Mullvad before reading this Just the only vpn with any integrity left remaining, no biggie.

Why do the other popular VPNs not have any integrity left?

A lot of them have been gobbled up by Kape or otherwise proven to keep logs/data when they claim they don't https://restoreprivacy.com/kape-technologies-owns-expressvpn...

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#166

Post by mechanical_bear » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #153

meltedcapacitor wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these benefits not eroding? Pressure on subscription models comes from both the public getting herd immunity against the underlying dark pattern and competitors chasing a diminishing supply of people to trick as world + dog has adopted the tactic. In this particular case, with a privacy tailwind, it will be unsurprising if it ends up increasing their sales.

I don't think so. Us privacy and control freaks abhor subscriptions, the mainstream just shrugs and pays what they're told to pay. I can even see them adopting rental models for a lot of stuff we purchase outright now (the "you will own nothing and you will be happy" great reset promoted by the world economic forum). I think this is pretty exploitative but I'm pretty sure I am in a minority. Obviously big business lo…

> you will own nothing and you will be happy

Too easy and lazy to blame this on some grand conspiracy. Reality is much more complicated, and cuts to heart of human behavior.

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#167

Post by jacooper » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

einpoklum wrote: post #142

So, I don't quite get it. They supposedly accept one-time payments, but their pricing page only shows recurring periodic payments. What gives?

There is no automatic recurring payment, its 5€ per month, you can pay it in one go for a specific period, or monthly manually.

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#168

Post by zahma » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #88

zahma wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there such a thing as a truly private “masked card service?” I’m genuinely curious because I use virtual cards supplied by my online bank, but I’m sure they retain records for each virtual card I use. Are there services that do not record this information?

Good question. I doubt any of them are truly private but I think it at least adds a layer of privacy and security from the service provider, but as with most things it probably won't protect you from a court order.

The only real masked card I can think of would be a gift card paid for in cash. Tedious as it is, that seems like the only way to use a debit card privately, and I think some of those are rejected by online pay platforms.

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#169

Post by dcow » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

advisedwang wrote: post #111

dymk wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what? Now you’re just using their ISP.

Most allow you to chose where the VPN exit is located, so you can have traffic originating in another country.

This is a nice feature and paying for it is a perfectly sane thing to do if you need the utility. It's not exactly privacy, though.

Re: We are removing the option to create new subscriptions

#170

Post by GekkePrutser » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

mechanical_bear wrote: post #166

GekkePrutser wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. Us privacy and control freaks abhor subscriptions, the mainstream just shrugs and pays what they're told to pay. I can even see them adopting rental models for a lot of stuff we purchase outright now (the "you will own nothing and you will be happy" great reset promoted by the world economic forum). I think this is pretty exploitative but I'm pretty sure I am in a minority. Obviously big business lo…

> you will own nothing and you will be happy Too easy and lazy to blame this on some grand conspiracy. Reality is much more complicated, and cuts to heart of human behavior.

Conspiracy no. But I don't like where the world is headed. Investors are demanding ever more markup on products and services. Nobody is happy with a 10% markup anymore in electronics. There seems to be a constant flow of money to the ultra-rich away from the poorer people, and this is something that has been constantly going on for the last decades. Because the squeeze is finally starting to hit the mainstream of the richer countries. Even the US is starting to see instability from this.

I think part of this is the free market which only really works on "MORE". More turnover, more customers, more products YoY. If you make a loss or invest in something for the common good a company isn't just frowned upon, they are putting themselves at liability of due diligence lawsuits. Most of the societal and environmental problems we are seeing stem from this, in my opinion. We need to fix the system before it's too late, not pamper to it.

I don't think there is a dark "SPECTRE" style gathering going on at Davos, no. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. However I do see there is zero incentive to improving the status quo if it doesn't make some rich people much richer yet again. This is why I see the WEF as a 'bad' entity, for promoting such things which are clearly undesirable. It's a very one-sided image.

For me as a tinkerer and maker the idea of renting my stuff and not being allowed to improve or repair it, is absolutely unthinkable and something that must be fought tooth and nail.