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Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

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Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#341
post #76
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corporate work week was never going to go below 35-40 hours per week. Bosses know they only get 15 good hours out of most people, if that, and it doesn't bother them as much as you'd think it would, because they get enough. It's not about productivity; it's about control. The workweek has to comprise at least 50.1% of a typical person's otherwise discretionary time, because otherwise people could have two jobs an…

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

They fulfill the same role muscle men.

A manager's goal is to enforce submission.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#342
post #38

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

I mean, how about we just take the wealth from the 10%?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social instability and riots - I assume you are referring to Black Lives Matter - did not happen due to "too much free time", JFC. They happened because police were routinely murdering Black people and there was/is a massive disparity in wealth.

None of that is new or changed in 2020, so clearly there are at least some other factors going on.

There was clear and undeniable video evidence available right while it happened. That changed because it took away the narrative control from the cops.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social instability and riots - I assume you are referring to Black Lives Matter - did not happen due to "too much free time", JFC. They happened because police were routinely murdering Black people and there was/is a massive disparity in wealth.

None of that is new or changed in 2020, so clearly there are at least some other factors going on.

[deleted]

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#346
post #303

I went to a "progressive" school where we had one strange class called "Design For Living". Today we'd probably call it "lifehacking". Among the fascinating and odd topics was a lesson on managing free time. The premise was a (socialist?) vision that everything would be done by robots by 2000, and we would have to find good hobbies and interests, keep fit and volunteer doing good things for our communities. I think d…

By contrast, digital work is almost never finished. Everything keeps changing, everything breaks and needs fixing, there's always one more revision or update... we have truly created a diabolical machine to enslave ourselves to. You're talking about telic (finite) vs atelic (infinite) activities. Life needs a balance in the matrix of [painful/pleasurable + telic/atelic]. Ultimately the atelic stuff that we naturally…

Those are interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing. Sorry for the late reply which I hope you see.

> Ultimately the atelic stuff that we naturally find pleasurable is where we want to spend a lot of our time, but life doesn't work that way. And it sounds like you're heavily skewed to the painful side of atelic work.

You're right. There's a lot of pleasurable activities for me, making music, playing games, sea swimming and long distance yomping, all without telos, other than as ends in themselves.

However I really resent technological makework. I consider it a failure of intelligence. So much stuff people do nowdays is a clear misuse of computers. Maybe I feel that way because as a computer scientist I see how wrong is the path we've taken and how foolish the work is. Nobody ever got fit or happy sitting at a desk doing a job that doesn't need doing. It's a tragic waste of human life.

Seeing people enslaved in tedium by the very tools that promised to set them free is a travesty and injustice I cannot easily turn away from.

> I personally enjoy that I can come back to my favourite SW projects and never run out of new ways to play with + improve them.

Absolutely. I totally get that too. But I think an unbounded creative drive is something different from the misery I am describing, which is not even a Protestant ethic, a duty, or even a Sisyphean feat. One needs full ownership of a project. And it takes considerable discipline not to be a dog who grows a tail so big it starts to wag you.

> if you limit your time vs binge until overfilled/ overworked, it creates a sense of looking forward to the activity later that is motivating. It's a matter of perspective really.

You and I probably share a similar sense of self-management. But what I get reading these pages is that "tech culture" today is filled with workers who feel disempowered at the pace, pressure and pointlessness of so much activity.

I don't think this is explainable simply as a necessary side-effect of technological society. Neil Postman made an interesting distinction between a technocracy (in which technology becomes the framework of a normally functioning society) and a technopoly in which technology for its own sake becomes the dominant organising principle.

I think that's where we are. And worse I think that "change for its own sake" is not what it seems. It's what I call paradoxical progress in Digital Vegan - where change as perpetual disruption is used as a disorientating force that inhibits real innovation and progress.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#347
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s simple: They are our proletariat.

It’s proletariats all the way down.

I think it eventually moves into others species, both for labor and feedstock.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#348
post #207
post #63

I think that may have come to pass if it hadn't been to the very top part of society capturing such a gigantic % of the new wealth generated. With more even distribution I could totally see more middle class deciding they've got a "good" life and no reason to work another 20 hours extra.

I’m not sure about that. It just seems like too easy an excuse. Just to damn convenient to say, “If only the rich people...”. I fear that the reason that applies much more often is that most of our energy is being spent on doing the wrong things, or being spent on competition with others. Think of somebody building a web scraper: They are spending hours or days building something whose purpose is essentially to overc…

>“Who is at fault for this?“

>“If only the rich people...”

My comment wasn't really aimed at allocating any sort of blame or implying the rich should fix it.

>most of our energy is being spent on doing the wrong things, or being spent on competition with others.

Is it though? The fact that total wealth is increasing overall to me suggests it is an allocation issue rather than

>Both parties have to run faster and faster just to stay in the same place.

That def is true for some areas, but not in aggregate I think.

Though frankly total wealth generated seems a little sus to me as well. How much of that is on paper?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#349
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in bay area, haven't made less than 100k since 2002. Obviously pay in Midwest is lower.

Why is that obvious

Because pretty much everyone knows about it, i.e. it's not a surprise.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#350

Compared to my parents and grandparents generation, my life is filled with leisure. Basic everyday necessities took up so much of my grandparent’s time when they were younger. A meal would take hours to prep. All the veggies to prep said meal grown. And then the many hours spent cleaning, maintaining, and improving the living space. Social obligations. They basically just worked all day long to just live. Leisure wer…

Your personal experience doesn't map 1 to 1 for all of society, just sayin.
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