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Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

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Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#71

Post by mettamage »

If I only had free time then:

I would meet a lot of people

Study and teach many things for fun

Travel wherever

Experience many different things

Play a lot

Alas, I work. I can hack it a bit by remote working and doing a 4 day work week. I have to give up playing and a studying/teaching for that.

I don’t understand how people can say that people need directions and therefore need to work. I need the exact opposite and I am sure I am not alone. I could imagine that some people need direction and therefore need to work. Not me though. I’d love to have all the free time in the world.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#72

Post by lesam »

mrtksn wrote: post #38
hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

Humanity is much more productive per capita than 50 years ago, but we are collectively working more hours, not less.

The goal should not be for everyone to do no work.

The goal should not be for everyone to work full time and fear unemployment.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#73

Post by cs137 »

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

The corporate work week was never going to go below 35-40 hours per week. Bosses know they only get 15 good hours out of most people, if that, and it doesn't bother them as much as you'd think it would, because they get enough. It's not about productivity; it's about control. The workweek has to comprise at least 50.1% of a typical person's otherwise discretionary time, because otherwise people could have two jobs and the employer's power would be reduced.

This is how a tech boss thinks: having 350 people under you means there are 350 people you can cause bad things to happen to if they don't do exactly what you say. They're not optimizing for widget production, and certainly not for welfare of the human species, but for their own personal careers. What they want is indivisible loyalty; they want to own people. And, if the rich people control the state enough to decide which laws get passed, as they do in the US, they will.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#74

Post by strken »

mrtksn wrote: post #38
hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

I live in Australia. Australia produces 190% of the food it requires, exports 71% of its agricultural production, and only 2.2% of its population work in agriculture. In earlier societies around 60% or more of the population worked in agriculture.

I don't believe most of this increasing agricultural productivity is due to us buying things from poor countries, although it's probably a factor at some level. I think it's due to the increasing technological sophistication of farming: the breeding of more productive crops, the use of tractors, the use of fertiliser both synthetic and man-made, better understanding and monitoring of soil health, better storage and better supply chains, new weedkillers, automated and partially automated animal handling, refrigeration and freezers, and everything else.

I do understand that someone has to do some work, but if we could have 8.8% of our population work in agriculture for 10 hours a week and not have to compete for housing against 40 hours a week incomes[0], that would be pretty great.

[0] Numbers are wrong: farmers work more than 40 hours a week. I think they explain the general point well enough, though.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#76

Post by imgabe »

cs137 wrote: post #73
hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

The corporate work week was never going to go below 35-40 hours per week. Bosses know they only get 15 good hours out of most people, if that, and it doesn't bother them as much as you'd think it would, because they get enough. It's not about productivity; it's about control. The workweek has to comprise at least 50.1% of a typical person's otherwise discretionary time, because otherwise people could have two jobs an…

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#77

Post by cs137 »

IdEntities wrote: post #69
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

> you can have a lot of bananas from Honduras if your society can make great apps that Hondurans love and willing to trade their bananas Yes, or alternatively, you can live in a society which uses coups, death squads, and puppet dictators to keep Honduran labor cheap.

[flagged]

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#78

Post by upsidesinclude »

mandmandam wrote: post #65
neonsunset wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsure why the post is downvoted, this point of view is really interesting. Could you link some reference materials to explore this more?

I am downvoting because the comment acts as if it's a mystery where all the wealth gains in productivity have gone. It is NOT a fucking mystery, and I'm outraged that so, so many people are or act oblivious to the obscenely obvious cause. (Since it's not actually obvious to everyone, thanks to shit education and propaganda, the uber-wealthy have hoovered up the gains in productivity and kept it to themselves.) It's v…

And no one cares about your diatribe or outrage.

The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best.

Always, for all time this is what happens in society. Don't care about your one example of some communist paradise that was great.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#79

Post by jmyeet »

Common right-wing propaganda is that socialism is a poverty cult. This is particularly prevelant in American culture. It's a complete fabrication. The reality is everyone should enjoy the fruits of their labours to a greater degree than they do today. This is the very idea behind workers owning the means of production.

Another way to put this is that every billionaire is a policy failure.

A quote that is often mentioned in this area is [1]:

> “John Steinbeck once said that socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

I'm reminded of a scene from The Sting where Robert Redford and Paul Newman's character are debating whether someone they've decided to con will take the bait [2]:

> "We had him 10 years ago when he decided to be somebody."

All the "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" in the US have so successfully been propagandized with that view so that Bezos can have $130B instead of $120B.

Americans should ahve more leisure time. They should have more satisfaction in life. And they should have a greater share in the properity they are fundamental in creating.

But none of that will happen until people realize that being divided on social issues is a tool used for manipulation. It's to stop working people from having class solidarity. You know who has class solidarity? Billionaires.

This isn't even a party issue. The billionaires have bought all sides.

[1]: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-john-steinbeck-once-...

[2]: https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/022e79f6-49e9-4dd1-b73a-7d1d130...

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#80

Post by mrtksn »

IdEntities wrote: post #69
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

> you can have a lot of bananas from Honduras if your society can make great apps that Hondurans love and willing to trade their bananas Yes, or alternatively, you can live in a society which uses coups, death squads, and puppet dictators to keep Honduran labor cheap.

Unfortunately that's true. There are also many other models to have elites, some more fair or less cruel than others.

This way or another the main equation never changes. That is, the resources we consume are below the resources we produce. Left or right, communists or capitalist or other kind of ideologues are just different groups of people who have different ideas on how to distribute the roles.

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