Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#321

Post by onphonenow » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

I worked internationally in some less well off countries.

A couple of notes:

While there may be less "leisure" and higher poverty, I found there was more mental leisure when working. In part because more manual labor I think. So your body was working, but your mind was not. For mental health this wasn't bad.

No one expected anything to be done particularly on time. There are some pejoratives in the west of this "xxx time" where xxx is the place. Yes, it makes getting stuff done in a western sense hard, but I liked the QoL.

Higher levels of community. Walk to work, walk to store - you got to know a lot of people. A fair number of people hanging out. You could usually go down and get a drink / play some cards etc if you wanted at end of day even at like the corner store. Mental side had a big community focus vs news focus. Very little news following etc - I sometimes thought if a war broke out unless it messed with sports it'd get a shoulder shrug. I was almost completely of social media etc beyond emails at an internet cafe periodically.

Govt couldn't be trusted at all, but could sort of be ignored as well. I was just looking at US based 150+ page permit application for a 300sq ft project. Special inspections, zoning, design review, permit etc etc. took 3 revisions and 18 months to get through paperwork. This simply couldn't happen in these countries.

At the time I was broke. Obviously some downsides if you had money / assets - theft etc. But without much "stuff" I wasn't bothered much on that side.

No all roses, was very glad to be back in the US for reasons (creature comforts). That said, I slept like a baby when working overseas - much more physical labor, much less mental stress.

All this is biased tremendously by being a foreigner. But there might be elements to learn from there.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#322

Post by imbnwa » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 10:36 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #319

imbnwa wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI 'house negroe' was a rare occurrence in the Antebellum South. Majority of plantations weren't big enough to support distinct labor pools, slaves largely and for the most part rotated tasks depending on age, gender, season, etc (the gender aspect is also why 'house negroe' is meant to suggest an effeminized Black male, which is an entirely other problematic discussion). Never mind the much higher rate of sexual as…

a similar distortion Uncle Tom's cabin has been lauded and critiqued since the day it was published so it's a little bit of a stretch to call this a 'distortion'.

Except we're talking about the genealogy of the perjorative use of the term which runs contrary to the book which is anti-slavery fiction wherein the eponymous character dies protecting runaway slaves.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#323

Post by pvg » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

imbnwa wrote: post #322

pvg wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a similar distortion Uncle Tom's cabin has been lauded and critiqued since the day it was published so it's a little bit of a stretch to call this a 'distortion'.

Except we're talking about the genealogy of the perjorative use of the term which runs contrary to the book which is anti-slavery fiction wherein the eponymous character dies protecting runaway slaves.

It's anti-slavery fiction in which the passivity and forbearance of the titular character was not to everyone's taste, among many other things. You think, I dunno, Baldwin was 'distorting' Uncle Tom's cabin? It's a weird way to put it.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#324

Post by s1artibartfast » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 12:25 AM UTC

kubb wrote: post #229

s1artibartfast wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but insurance is part of the pay. Im a bit skeptical that the poster would actually be happy with 10% pay, which would probably not cover the insurance, shelter, and food they are used to. That said, I am open minded and there are certainly people that do live on 10% of a SWE salary. You can rent a mobile home in a low CoL area, get on Medicaid, and have a lot of free time. Some people do exactly this, but i…

Realistically, I would need 30% of my pay to live a modest, but safe life.

I would make sure your accounting for Social Security and health insurance but if that's what you want you should totally do it.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#325

Post by strken » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 12:36 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #109

strken wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the argument that people living in Australia would starve to death if everyone in the world gradually halved their working hours over the next decade. I think current consumption here is so far above subsistence levels that there's a lot of room to drop without facing famine. This is less clear-cut for anyone in a society that's close to subsistence and I'm not in any way suggesting that we should all cut…

If halved working hours result in reduced output of the needed chemicals and machinery, that would definitely mean that less food will be produced. If Australia can keep up paying more than the rest and purchase the needed resources and machinery, then other parts of the world will starve and Australia will be just fine, I guess. Ideally, paying more should be able to convince people to work and prevent supply chain…

I think you're suggesting that

- the world is at literal subsistence level overall

- all nominal gains in productivity are just shuffling numbers around

- if anyone at all stops working, people will die

This seems obviously untrue given the increase in agricultural productivity. I know a few farmers, and none of them think agricultural productivity has stayed the same. Additionally, it seems really obvious that lots of industrial production is now going towards making luxury cars, TVs, smartphones, bigger houses, better healthcare, etc. and that not all of these are necessary for agricultural production.

Even further, global food insecurity has been decreasing. Only 8.9% of the world's population are food insecure, and prior to the war in Ukraine, those people mostly didn't live in agriculturally productive areas. I find it hard to believe that the remaining 91% are living off the work of the 8.9%. I think a much simpler explanation is that agriculture has actually gotten more productive even if you include the cost of making tractors.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#326

Post by samhuk » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 12:42 AM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #179

samhuk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely written, but I don't fully understand your logic here. The bricklayer's wall in your comparison is precisely analogous to an "update" a developer has to do. The work is not complete for a bricklayer nor a software developer. Just as there is "one more revision or update" as you put it, there is always one more house to build walls for. What I think you may be feeling though, is that working on software sometim…

There's a satisfaction you get when you finish a house - there is something you can point to and say "that is done ". There's even a satisfaction with mopping a floor, it is clean now even though it will dirty again. Most programming doesn't have the first and only sometimes do you get the second. It'd be like building a house and finishing and immediately changing something on it, or fixing something that broke, for…

As sibling comment implies, constructing things physically can often have the "forever needing to be built upon" aspect just like software.

The difference that you are probably feeling here, at least from what i can see, is that once a house is built by a construction company, it is "handed over" pretty much completely, whereas with software there is almost never such a handover, but instead a "support period". This I suppose can lead to fatigue as you end up never reaching a "final final" product per se like the house.

Personally, i have always found it helpful to plan by milestones/major versions, such that it, in a "hack the human brain" kind of way, provides a synthetic almost-copy of that " ah, all done, time to move on" that the human brain gets when a house is built, or a mountain is climbed.

Interesting philosophies hidden within all this, particularly for team leads and such of dev teams.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#327

Post by sudosysgen » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 1:18 AM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #306

actually_a_dog wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What freedom? Freedom implies the ability to do things. You can't do that if you can't afford to live. Keep in mind MIT's living wage calculation doesn't include things like savings and any sort of entertainment. What kind of life is that?

I meant it as in "negative liberty" or the "freedom from interference by other people". This is how it's usually defined when people say "free society", the opposite being an "authoritarian society".

Well, not quite. Negative liberty is an ill defined concept that descends from the need to santize the religious concept of god-given right.

In reality, anyone exercising their right to property, for example, interferes with anyone else who might want to use it. It is only justifiable insofar as such an interference allows for more positive liberty in general, which is why positive rights are the only ones that actually matter (indeed, the only pure negative rights that don't imply interference in the actions are other are in factr the positive freedom to do what one wants with oneself's body).

While your interpration is the classical liberal (and religious) dogma, generally when people hear free society they understand it as a society where you can reasonably do what you want, not a society where property rights are absolute. And indeed such an interpretation is much more coherent.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#328

Post by olalonde » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 2:45 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #327

olalonde wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant it as in "negative liberty" or the "freedom from interference by other people". This is how it's usually defined when people say "free society", the opposite being an "authoritarian society".

Well, not quite. Negative liberty is an ill defined concept that descends from the need to santize the religious concept of god-given right. In reality, anyone exercising their right to property, for example, interferes with anyone else who might want to use it. It is only justifiable insofar as such an interference allows for more positive liberty in general, which is why positive rights are the only ones that actua…

I'm surprised this is causing so much confusion.

> when people hear free society they understand it as a society where you can reasonably do what you want

This is indeed what I meant. Hope this clears it up!

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#329

Post by Forgeties79 » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 3:04 AM UTC

CodeSgt wrote: post #312

Forgeties79 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in the arts or a field adjacent to it, by chance?

That's not relevant to the discussion, if you have something you want to say then just say it. Don't try to ask me a question you think you know the answer to and then tell me my answer precludes me from having an opinion on the subject at hand. This is one of the most common methods I see employed by bad-faith conversationalist and it's sickening. Your point should stand on it's own merit, not on your ability to inv…

> That's not relevant to the discussion, if you have something you want to say then just say it.

Hey ease off throttle man. This isn’t Reddit.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#330

Post by zdragnar » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 4:41 AM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #221

zdragnar wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget making and mending your own clothes, washing them by hand, beating rugs outdoors by hand, all the little chores that have been replaced by electrical tools or are cheaper to purchase than make yourself. Harvesting and chopping firewood, or managing coal. If you visit an Amish community, they might talk about how people occasionally want to join them, only to realize just how much easier modern life is an…

My parents' generation definitely didn't need to do most of what you described, and so did most of my grandparents' lives. They also had a much easier time retiring whereas young people are expected to work almost to their 70s. Not sure what generations you're talking about, but as sibling said, location and age matter. Boomers had it extremely well here past their 30s and more than enough services available to do th…

Many rural homes in the US didn't get electricity until 1935 or 36; it took a massive federal program to electrify the countryside.

Indoor toilets weren't a feature in many rural homes until 1950; I think my dad's farmhouse didn't have indoor plumbing the first few years of his life.