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Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

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Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#51

Post by mrtksn »

neonsunset wrote: post #46
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

Unsure why the post is downvoted, this point of view is really interesting. Could you link some reference materials to explore this more?

I think the topic is quite nebulous but I recall some articles on these issues here on HN that reached the front page. I recall something about historical ratio of the non-working elites being about the same and societies crumbling over that threshold.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#52

Post by refurb »

Mizza wrote: post #31
eric4smith wrote: post #19

Quoted post unavailable.

This comment is absolutely drenched in ideology, the kind of Protestantism that will grind the whole planet into dust if we let it. Sheer, absolute drivel. "As we all know" aside - what's wrong with slacking off? Does painting, writing poetry, playing sports with kids, learning an instrument count as slacking off? Why does spending 8 hours a day at a job where you perform some rote, pointless, abstract task - like se…

This is kind of a bizarre take.

I don’t know anyone who would call “painting, writing poetry, playing sports with kids, learning an instrument” slacking off.

And having lived in both wealthy communities and among poor communities in developing countries it amazing the general mood among the poor seems to ve much more positive and less anxious and neurotic.

My interpretation is humans thrive when they have a purpose and for many people work is a purpose either what they produce themselves or what they use their gains for - family, children, building a future.

And when there is no purpose and there is no need to do anything, many people become lost and fall into negative self-harm.

So no, it’s not that work is a requirement, but productivity in whatever does seem a natural fit for humans.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#53

Post by watwut »

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

> If you like TV, great for you, but it being the 'default' might be a problem

When I was younger, I multiple times tried to cut of all mindless crap like tv or browsing. It led to lite depression and low productivity every single time. Conversely, when I had a lot of free time or worked on easy boring project, the stuff I do in free time became more intellectually difficult without me intentionally going for it.

My point here is that people cant be productive all the time. We do need some amount of mindless chill, be it tv or low key socialization.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#56

Post by QuarterReptile »

DeathArrow wrote: post #44

>Indeed, in 2006, the top twenty per cent of earners were twice as likely to work more than fifty hours a week than the bottom twenty per cent, a reversal of historic conditions. >Just why this has happened is both a mystery and a paradox. No paradox. One way to make more money is to work more.

It's really a lot more than this. Top earners (which is a narrower group than a full quintile, but just bear with me) are producing huge value for their fellow man, which is certainly more interesting than hourly work and can be addicting or at least very satisfying. There are also huge incentives to overwork yourself if you're specialized and very knowledgeable, because the coordination costs of finding someone else capable of sharing the load and then doing all the delegating, meeting, review, etc. can be extreme. If you're working for yourself on some earlier stage ventures, it may take you 35 hours of work just to keep the business running; in that case working 50 hours vs. 40 triples your 'productive' time. And on and on.

>One way to make more money is to work more.

In these discussions it's worth remembering the second order effects of hours worked on pay. The first order effect is that an hourly rate multiplied by more hours is a higher number. But if you're hourly, working long hours puts more of your time in overtime in any official hourly sort of situation. More importantly, it means that you're getting good at your job at an uncommonly high rate, and you're the person who's always around, who knows more and is getting things done. It's hard to promote someone else in this scenario. And for the person working, it's hard to not quickly outgrow the job in this way.

Finally, an analogy: my brother spends way more of his time playing basketball than I do. It's not that I can get all the basketball I need done in 20 minutes a week whereas it takes him 5 hours. I just suck at basketball, so I don't care to play.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#57

Post by joaonmatos »

neonsunset wrote: post #46
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

Unsure why the post is downvoted, this point of view is really interesting. Could you link some reference materials to explore this more?

I guess you can read “Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism” by V.I. Lenin to explore the topic more

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#58

Post by samhuk »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #21

I went to a "progressive" school where we had one strange class called "Design For Living". Today we'd probably call it "lifehacking". Among the fascinating and odd topics was a lesson on managing free time. The premise was a (socialist?) vision that everything would be done by robots by 2000, and we would have to find good hobbies and interests, keep fit and volunteer doing good things for our communities. I think d…

Nicely written, but I don't fully understand your logic here. The bricklayer's wall in your comparison is precisely analogous to an "update" a developer has to do. The work is not complete for a bricklayer nor a software developer. Just as there is "one more revision or update" as you put it, there is always one more house to build walls for.

What I think you may be feeling though, is that working on software sometimes feels "endless", but that's really what happens when a project is poorly managed and no "strategic milestones" are reached. This is particularly severe in web dev, less so in the game dev scene where there are more of those "definite walls" to reach.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#59

Post by mordae »

watwut wrote: post #53
hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

> If you like TV, great for you, but it being the 'default' might be a problem When I was younger, I multiple times tried to cut of all mindless crap like tv or browsing. It led to lite depression and low productivity every single time. Conversely, when I had a lot of free time or worked on easy boring project, the stuff I do in free time became more intellectually difficult without me intentionally going for it. My…

For sure. Ever tried to go to bed immediately after sending the last email, your mind still preoccupied by work? It's impossible to get a good sleep like that. At least for me.

A hour or two of unwinding with a book or a Star Trek episode, talking about vacation with your SO or something else to get your mind off work is essential.

Which makes excessive work even more problematic. You have to commute, shop, do chores AND unwind.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#60

Post by mordae »

chmod600 wrote: post #17

Freedom is an important part of the American identity (arguably the defining part, at least aspirationally), and I believe in freedom. But we should recognize that humans are sometimes happier having some clear directions to follow and tasks to perform. Depends on the person and the situation, of course. But it's also human nature that everyone wants to be the one giving the directions, even if it makes them unhappy.

I think your argument is too strong. I'd be willing to agree that humans are happier when there are clear expectations and consequences.

Well, as long as the only reachable consequence is not "too bad, you are going to be exploited by someone else and then you die".

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