Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#141

Post by CodeSgt » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

eunoia wrote: post #129

CodeSgt wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? I don't think it's work specifically that's tied to morality, but production. If someone is obviously consuming more than they're producing, then they're going to get negative attention. In 2022 it's not always clear exactly how much someone is produ…

> Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? This is how we end up with no art, no music, no culture, no raising of the future generations etc. If the only metric via which we value time spent and effort spent is money earned none of these (very important) things can compare even to the most…

Plenty of people pay for art and music. I didn't say they weren't valuable, I said what you're trying to offer specifically may not be valuable. I know you think it's some incredible service that everybody wants, but have you considered that maybe it isn't?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#142

Post by annyeonghada » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #9

hcrean wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Social instability and riots - I assume you are referring to Black Lives Matter - did not happen due to "too much free time", JFC. They happened because police were routinely murdering Black people and there was/is a massive disparity in wealth.

Have you data or are you just spouting the propaganda lines?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#143

Post by huijzer » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #38

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

> despite the increase in productivity we also have increased lifespan which results in large number of retirees who consume the resources for much longer than before

Don’t forget "rising living standards" which in Western cultures is an euphemism for "extravagant consumption".

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#144

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

slothtrop wrote: post #103

feet wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Citations required I do not agree whatsoever, just because you don't have the imagination to come up with a better system for organizing labor and resources doesn't mean it isn't possible

I'm not holding my breath. As of yet, no one has had the imagination. This has become a fav piece of rhetoric by ancoms who believe complex supply lines, infrastructure and essential services could be maintained, let alone improved upon, with a "flat hierarchy" society doing away with representative democracy. No one can take that seriously. The universe hates a vacuum and you can be sure that, as in the past, if goo…

[deleted]

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#145

Post by BeFlatXIII » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:49 PM UTC

tomerbd wrote: post #55

Not only do we have less time: 1. Both couple partners have to work in the past only one. 2. We work more. 3. We take loans (obligate to future work).

RE: point 1, it should read "both partners have to work *for wages*; in the past, only one (at most)"

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#146

Post by arinlen » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:50 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #38

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

> It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be (...)

How about we don't succumb to the desire to pull strawmen and focus on simple things to accomplish such as being able to make a honest living that leaves you with disposable income after covering all your cost of living with a simple 9-to-5 job?

Where does this need to create the illusion that there is possibly no grey area between a homeless slacker and a glorious millionaire investor?

Is it too much to ask the most prosperous economy in the history of the world to allow workers to actually live a modest life with your salary? Otherwise, why would those workers continue to support that absurd society?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#147

Post by StayTrue » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

The article, and people in general, don’t seem to acknowledge that consumption has increased as well. For example my 795sqft house would not be on the radar of most families but it was typical for the area when it was built in 1946. Productivity gains have been directed to increased consumption rather than leisure as Keynes envisioned. If you ask people how much is enough, the answers are often laughable.

To be explicit, I don’t think individual consumption explains the whole story (e.g. inequality and wealth distribution) but normalizing for it paints a clearer picture.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#148

Post by briantakita » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #118

briantakita wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a more inclusive version of the company store where one does work for tokens while it's near impractical to be self sufficient & difficult/dangerous to be physically soverign. Even if one lives off the land, the corporations & government groups have polluted & own most of it. One would have to go fully indigenous to move away from the system, but even then there is much violence against the indigenous peoples. S…

It was never practical to be self sufficient. Hunter gatherers living off the land worked together in tribes. People alone in the wilderness mostly die.

Sure...I never stated that self-sufficiency meant being alone. Hunter Gathers also had a relatively flat social hierarchy that was family & tribe oriented. The elders & leaders had direct skin in the game. There was no middle management or social abstractions in Hunter Gatherer society. They were healthy, happy, had plenty of game to hunt, managed forests, & had little pollution. There was no large scale wars. They were self sufficient as a community. Now we have multi level hierarchical control systems where the people benefiting have no direct downside to causing harm to other people.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#149

Post by meany » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:54 PM UTC

cs137 wrote: post #85

imgabe wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

I do realize that, at least if we're talking about middle managers. It'd be a stretch to say that executives are "labor" or are "employees" except in a strict legal fashion. Executives don't work for companies; companies work for executives. The reasons for this are sociological rather than economic--in short, so long as executives uphold the interests of the upper class, the other rich people who control the company…

It seems that there is a lot of emotion in your assessment because you use sweeping absolutes to describe millions of people. In my experience the world is complex and nuanced. Do you really mean to say all rich people are law breakers ala crooks? When you define rich, are you using a global scale? For instance are most people in the developed world crooks? There are good and bad people in all walks of life, all countries, races, etc. More often than not, when you get to understand the forces that impact people, you realize that what seem like simple decisions from the outside to make the world a better place have unseen negative consequences.

On a personal level, I can say my managers try to be good people, although the may not always do the best thing. In my case, my wife has stage 4 cancer and they have been tremendously supportive.

Edit: I should probably mention for full transparency I work at Amazon as it is sited in the article.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#150

Post by nradov » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:54 PM UTC

eunoia wrote: post #129

CodeSgt wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? I don't think it's work specifically that's tied to morality, but production. If someone is obviously consuming more than they're producing, then they're going to get negative attention. In 2022 it's not always clear exactly how much someone is produ…

> Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? This is how we end up with no art, no music, no culture, no raising of the future generations etc. If the only metric via which we value time spent and effort spent is money earned none of these (very important) things can compare even to the most…

That makes no sense. People do pay for those things. They buy art and concert tickets. Teaching isn't super lucrative but they earn a decent living wage in most areas.