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Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

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Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#81

Post by cs137 »

lesam wrote: post #72
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

Humanity is much more productive per capita than 50 years ago, but we are collectively working more hours, not less. The goal should not be for everyone to do no work. The goal should not be for everyone to work full time and fear unemployment.

Part of the problem is that people have been conditioned into accepting this weird binary division between Work (measurable, institutionalized, subordinate labor) and Not-Work (everything else) that doesn't exist in healthy societies.

The kibbutzniks worked a lot harder than U.S. office workers, but didn't have the problem of alienation and the epidemic of mental ill-health (plus chronic inflammation, obesity, et al) that we have.

Almost all of us want the institutional, authoritarian nightmare we call "Work" to die, and it's past high time that it does... but, unfortunately, we've been stripped of our imagination when it comes to the question of how work (that is, useful activity) will get done without it.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#82

Post by Forgeties79 »

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

As I’ve gotten older, I have been vocalizing a question to my friends and family: why is it so unreasonable of me to not want to work a job I don’t like, and instead spend my time producing documentaries and teaching audio production to kids? These are two things I’ve found I love doing. They provide value to society. Yet a sustained income from them is basically unattainable except in very specific, lucky cases, not to mention the income is minimal.

People love to consume art but don’t value the arts. People love the idea of kids - especially “at risk youth” - having technical or otherwise just interesting programming, yet in the case of audio production like I mentioned above there is just one nonprofit here busting its ass trying to make it happen as the only entity attempting it.

All of this is to say, if I didn’t have to worry about making a living and had a bunch of leisure time, I would be putting my time and energy towards these endeavors. Because I think they are valuable, they mean something to me, and I think society would benefit from it too. Unfortunately we have this ridiculous habit of tying morality to work in the US as a result of our Puritan hangover, which means I am not able to pursue the above unless someone deems it worthy of sustained funding (they won’t because virtually no ROI on documentaries or ethical kids programs) or I am sitting on a nest egg most people can’t ever achieve so I don’t have to worry about surviving.

Sorry for the semi-rant. The negative ripple effect tying work to morality has on our society is truly hard to overstate and it upsets me a lot. It’s such a cynical view of people and, unfortunately, is often tied to racial perceptions as well.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#83

Post by kwhitefoot »

arvinsim wrote: post #50
hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

I would even say that you need leisure and slacking off to discover what you actually want to do.

Then you might discover that you like doing something that doesn't involve paying for it!

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#84

Post by imgabe »

strken wrote: post #74
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

I live in Australia. Australia produces 190% of the food it requires, exports 71% of its agricultural production, and only 2.2% of its population work in agriculture. In earlier societies around 60% or more of the population worked in agriculture. I don't believe most of this increasing agricultural productivity is due to us buying things from poor countries, although it's probably a factor at some level. I think it'…

People need more than food. Healthcare, education, electricity, water, the fancy phone or computer you’re reading this on, the infrastructure that connects it together with everyone else - all of these require people working in order to exist.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#85

Post by cs137 »

imgabe wrote: post #76
cs137 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corporate work week was never going to go below 35-40 hours per week. Bosses know they only get 15 good hours out of most people, if that, and it doesn't bother them as much as you'd think it would, because they get enough. It's not about productivity; it's about control. The workweek has to comprise at least 50.1% of a typical person's otherwise discretionary time, because otherwise people could have two jobs an…

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

I do realize that, at least if we're talking about middle managers. It'd be a stretch to say that executives are "labor" or are "employees" except in a strict legal fashion. Executives don't work for companies; companies work for executives. The reasons for this are sociological rather than economic--in short, so long as executives uphold the interests of the upper class, the other rich people who control the company (important shareholders) will look the other way on their self-dealing.

The fact that they are victims of the system does not mean they are innocent of all charges. Almost everyone who is and remains rich or powerful in this world is a crook; that doesn't mean everyone who is not rich or powerful is a saint.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#86

Post by feet »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #78
mandmandam wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am downvoting because the comment acts as if it's a mystery where all the wealth gains in productivity have gone. It is NOT a fucking mystery, and I'm outraged that so, so many people are or act oblivious to the obscenely obvious cause. (Since it's not actually obvious to everyone, thanks to shit education and propaganda, the uber-wealthy have hoovered up the gains in productivity and kept it to themselves.) It's v…

And no one cares about your diatribe or outrage. The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Always, for all time this is what happens in society. Don't care about your one example of some communist paradise that was great.

>The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best.

Citations required

I do not agree whatsoever, just because you don't have the imagination to come up with a better system for organizing labor and resources doesn't mean it isn't possible

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#87

Post by mrtksn »

strken wrote: post #74
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

I live in Australia. Australia produces 190% of the food it requires, exports 71% of its agricultural production, and only 2.2% of its population work in agriculture. In earlier societies around 60% or more of the population worked in agriculture. I don't believe most of this increasing agricultural productivity is due to us buying things from poor countries, although it's probably a factor at some level. I think it'…

Food is just part of the human consumption. Starting with the agrarian society, we as species are having it very easy TBH. Disasters happen and some places are chronically problematic but overall food is solved problem since many millenniums.

Thanks to the developments in the last century, incredibly small percentage of people directly produce the food. However this is due to paradigm shift, these people are capable to produce so much food is thanks to other people who produce their tools and resources used in production of food. Still huge number of people are working in feeding the population, just indirectly.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#88

Post by bhk »

lesam wrote: post #72
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

Humanity is much more productive per capita than 50 years ago, but we are collectively working more hours, not less. The goal should not be for everyone to do no work. The goal should not be for everyone to work full time and fear unemployment.

Who are you to tell everyone what their goals should be?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#89

Post by feet »

IdEntities wrote: post #69
mrtksn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! It really boils down on how many people need how much resources and how many people produce these resources. You can argue over who should be your bourgeoisie, should it be the political elite or the entrepreneurs or should it be inherited or or should it be the the people from special blood or religion or should no one be…

> you can have a lot of bananas from Honduras if your society can make great apps that Hondurans love and willing to trade their bananas Yes, or alternatively, you can live in a society which uses coups, death squads, and puppet dictators to keep Honduran labor cheap.

This is a point that many people seem to ignore

US foreign policy and actions of private companies have absolutely decimated other countries, cultures, and economies so now those countries are reliant on the income from rich US capitalists exploiting their populace's dire straights. That we placed them in.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#90

Post by imgabe »

cs137 wrote: post #85
imgabe wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

I do realize that, at least if we're talking about middle managers. It'd be a stretch to say that executives are "labor" or are "employees" except in a strict legal fashion. Executives don't work for companies; companies work for executives. The reasons for this are sociological rather than economic--in short, so long as executives uphold the interests of the upper class, the other rich people who control the company…

Good luck with that.
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