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Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

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Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#101

Post by CodeSgt »

feet wrote: post #91
hansword wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because despite the increase in productivity we also have increased lifespan which results in large number of retirees who consume the resources for much longer than before. The retirees in your example, with great probability, either have to rely on outside support (be it children or social security), or they will die with lots of wealth left over (aka inheritance). I hate to sound like a crummy communist, but thi…

Communists aren't crummy in the least, the ideas are important for developing new ideas that work better than our current system

They are definitely crummy. Communism isn't a new idea. It's a very old, very bad idea that's repeatedly failed.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#102

Post by heretogetout »

feet wrote: post #86
upsidesinclude wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And no one cares about your diatribe or outrage. The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Always, for all time this is what happens in society. Don't care about your one example of some communist paradise that was great.

>The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Citations required I do not agree whatsoever, just because you don't have the imagination to come up with a better system for organizing labor and resources doesn't mean it isn't possible

How would you organize labor and resources such that there is no elite class? How do you enforce whatever rules are required and ensure that those enforcers don't become the elite themselves (if nobody else..)?

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#103

Post by slothtrop »

feet wrote: post #86
upsidesinclude wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And no one cares about your diatribe or outrage. The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Always, for all time this is what happens in society. Don't care about your one example of some communist paradise that was great.

>The point is that there is always an elite or wealthy class, pick which group you like best. Citations required I do not agree whatsoever, just because you don't have the imagination to come up with a better system for organizing labor and resources doesn't mean it isn't possible

I'm not holding my breath. As of yet, no one has had the imagination. This has become a fav piece of rhetoric by ancoms who believe complex supply lines, infrastructure and essential services could be maintained, let alone improved upon, with a "flat hierarchy" society doing away with representative democracy. No one can take that seriously. The universe hates a vacuum and you can be sure that, as in the past, if goons have an opening to seize power under the guise of Communism, with their party being the only legitimate, then they will. Removing checks and balances will do that.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#104

Post by s1artibartfast »

Havoc wrote: post #63

I think that may have come to pass if it hadn't been to the very top part of society capturing such a gigantic % of the new wealth generated. With more even distribution I could totally see more middle class deciding they've got a "good" life and no reason to work another 20 hours extra.

This is something that I often wonder about.

We often talk about the distribution of wealth, but I wonder about the distribution of labor consumption and physical goods.

I think it would be a interesting lens to look at the same question with different implications.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#105

Post by [deleted] »

chmod600 wrote: post #17

Freedom is an important part of the American identity (arguably the defining part, at least aspirationally), and I believe in freedom. But we should recognize that humans are sometimes happier having some clear directions to follow and tasks to perform. Depends on the person and the situation, of course. But it's also human nature that everyone wants to be the one giving the directions, even if it makes them unhappy.

[deleted]

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#106

Post by briantakita »

imgabe wrote: post #76
cs137 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corporate work week was never going to go below 35-40 hours per week. Bosses know they only get 15 good hours out of most people, if that, and it doesn't bother them as much as you'd think it would, because they get enough. It's not about productivity; it's about control. The workweek has to comprise at least 50.1% of a typical person's otherwise discretionary time, because otherwise people could have two jobs an…

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

No post body was provided.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#107

Post by closedloop129 »

>The antidote is simple to prescribe but hard to achieve: it is a return to the goal of efficiency in work—fulfilling whatever needs we have, as a society, with the minimal effort required, while leaving the option of more work as a hobby for those who happen to love it.

What's the acceptable minimum? Society could become like an army, with the same clothing for everybody, a small personal area to sleep and a canteen for food. Everything could be highly automated.

It's my understanding that we prefer individualism and status. The housing market with reduced interests rates has shown that people don't take the opportunity to work less. Instead, they are willing to max out what they can spend per month.

Apart from individual status, don't we want leisure time to be as low as possible to have maximum progress [1]? If it becomes acceptable to work 10 hours per week, will society stagnate because there is not enough time to transmit knowledge from one generation to the next?

[1] Do we need a better understanding of 'progress'?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31764663

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#108

Post by kubb »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #95
kubb wrote: post #48

I have several fantastic things that I love doing and work makes it very hard for me to pursue them. One of them is philosophy. There is a great deal of benefit and pleasure that a person can derive from learning about about and understanding the arguments that have been made across the centuries. Another is physical activity. It feels great to move your body, it makes you so much happier than sitting at a desk. Anot…

>If I could get 1/10 of what I earn but without having to perform all this theatre, it would be better for everyone. What does this mean? You would take a 90% pay cut for 90% less work? Seems pretty doable

Not really, no company hires you for 10 or 20% in software engineering, while still paying enough that you could sustain yourself. The minimum is 80%, because it still the most of your time, so it seems reasonable in the work oriented society.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#109

Post by mrtksn »

strken wrote: post #98
mrtksn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food is just part of the human consumption. Starting with the agrarian society, we as species are having it very easy TBH. Disasters happen and some places are chronically problematic but overall food is solved problem since many millenniums. Thanks to the developments in the last century, incredibly small percentage of people directly produce the food. However this is due to paradigm shift, these people are capable…

I don't buy the argument that people living in Australia would starve to death if everyone in the world gradually halved their working hours over the next decade. I think current consumption here is so far above subsistence levels that there's a lot of room to drop without facing famine. This is less clear-cut for anyone in a society that's close to subsistence and I'm not in any way suggesting that we should all cut…

If halved working hours result in reduced output of the needed chemicals and machinery, that would definitely mean that less food will be produced. If Australia can keep up paying more than the rest and purchase the needed resources and machinery, then other parts of the world will starve and Australia will be just fine, I guess.

Ideally, paying more should be able to convince people to work and prevent supply chain shortages but if for some strange reason people all over the world insist on working less some people who are less fortunate will definitely need to change their diet or even die.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#110

Post by swayvil »

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

>I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here.

There is a strong incentive to craft a narrative where their present lifestyle (live in a filthy city, busy all the time, etc) is, if not the best possible, at least unavoidable.

The alternative is depression.

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