Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

science.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 332 posts

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#321

Post by derbOac »

wolverine876 wrote: post #244
LegitShady wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the creme of the creme are all working for big companies making big dollars. But I could imagine people in academia thinking they are the a big deal.

What is that based on? AFIAK, the leaders in almost every field are in academia, where they have the independence to do research, not earn profits, and where their research has the greatest impact because their employer doesn't hide it from the world as long as possible.

Speaking from experience, the "not earn profits" part isn't actually true anymore in many places.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#322

Post by derbOac »

cycomanic wrote: post #230
WesleyLivesay wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is very much a uniquely American article and comment. I believe in many other nations the situation is different on both sides. Postdocs are treated different and get more pay, junior developers get paid less.

I agree with you. I don't know why but the most disfunctional labs I know about are all in the US (Prof putting meetings on sat morning so everyone comes in to work on weekends...), although I know of some pretty bad places in Switzerland as well. You're also correct postdoc salaries higher in Europe (and developer ones are lower). However, there is definitely a problem finding postdocs also here. I should say that t…

The economics of higher education are different in the US and elsewhere, especially Europe. The culture is as well in my experience.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#323

Post by jboggan »

hervature wrote: post #287
jboggan wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely true. I saw this play out in my lab where we had 1-2 PhD students (including myself) and about 12-16 rotating postdocs. They worked insane hours for very little pay, no benefits, and produced 95% of the output of the lab. Our professor was definitely the "wrong" kind of professor, as about 50% of them left academia entirely and not by choice after being wrung dry of all productive output and then discarded…

> The professor also only hired visa applicants to have extra leverage over them. For any postdoc that thinks the university has leverage for this reason, if you are able to get a H1B, you can switch employers easily. You are not stuck at whichever company sponsored you.

I think every single person in my lab was on a J-1. This was in the 2006-2010 timeframe, the H1B process for post-docs may be different now. I can think of one case where a researcher burned out on 80 hour weeks, got divorced, and was asked to leave after their productivity dropped. They didn't have much choice other than to go home to their home country immediately.

We also had an untenured research scientist who did all of the PI's work and grant writing. After two 110+ hour weeks getting three grants written for several million dollars they went home to enjoy the weekend and dropped dead of a heart attack at 42. I miss him.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#325

Post by wolverine876 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #316
wolverine876 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are advantages, there also are disadvantages. That doesn't explain why it's obvious (nor address the HN bias/groupthink).

I was responding purely to your point about working conditions. Obviously if you come from money, have a partner who does, come from a country that’s substantially poorer than most of the first world or want to do science more than you want to have a non long distance relationship or make a professional class income doing a PhD/postdoc looks great.

For all the sarcasm, there is more to it and many people choose and and have chosen it. My point it, just because you see it that way doesn't make it "obvious"; it's just your point of view.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#326

Post by wolverine876 »

derbOac wrote: post #321
wolverine876 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is that based on? AFIAK, the leaders in almost every field are in academia, where they have the independence to do research, not earn profits, and where their research has the greatest impact because their employer doesn't hide it from the world as long as possible.

Speaking from experience, the "not earn profits" part isn't actually true anymore in many places.

Are you saying that there is pressure on academic researchers to earn profits?

I noticed a major university announcing some new center to nurture businesses to monetize IP. I remember when universities tried to generate knowledge and value for society.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#327

Post by quantum_magpie »

titanomachy wrote: post #261
quantum_magpie wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I am surprised that universities haven't created formal part-academia-part-industry partnerships with nearby companies just yet. These do exist. I was offered to do a so-called 'Industrial PhD' at University of Copenhagen, where you get funded by a company, you do research split between university labs and the company labs, and work at the company at the same time. Should be noted that the time crunch is brutal, as…

Does the "industry work" part of it produce publishable research that could be used towards a thesis?

Usually yes, but there are always exceptions.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#328

Post by borroka »

vecter wrote: post #232
LegitShady wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the creme of the creme are all working for big companies making big dollars. But I could imagine people in academia thinking they are the a big deal.

That's not really fair either. There are plenty of brilliant people in academia who don't care for big paychecks from corporations.

The ones I talk to all complain about the poor pay, relative to how much people make in industry. A few make the jump, especially those whose discipline allow them to transition easily to industry.

But try to be a tenure-track professor in biology at a mid academic institution. You are fed up, you want more money, money you think you deserve. Where do you go at, say, fifty years old?

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#329

Post by hervature »

bananaquant wrote: post #292
hervature wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The professor also only hired visa applicants to have extra leverage over them. For any postdoc that thinks the university has leverage for this reason, if you are able to get a H1B, you can switch employers easily. You are not stuck at whichever company sponsored you.

False. H1B visas given to work for a university are "cap exempt." They allow to work for universities and other nonprofits only. H1B visas to work for a for-profit company can only be obtained through a lottery.

I don't think we are in disagreement here. My main point is that many feel "pressure" from their employer. Knowing and keeping your options open and ready to act on them, even at other universities, empower all workers.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#330

Post by rapjr9 »

vkou wrote: post #208
mvh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a PhD student in CS in the USA. At my school in Boston, we are paid a ~40K USD/yr stipend. My friends in industry make a _minimum_ of 120k/yr, and some make considerably more than that (think 200k+), in junior / "entry-level" positions. When I complete the PhD, if I go to industry in the USA, my income will probably be similar to that of my friends who will have been in industry the entire time (and gotten steady…

Getting hired as a PHD is usually a +1 in level compared to a junior.

Don't forget that a PhD makes it more difficult to get some kinds of jobs. An intermediate or low level developer job may pay more, but if you have a PhD the interviewers are going to question why you are applying for a low level job and be worried how long you will stay. So in some respects a PhD reduces your employability (though you can always lie and say you never got the PhD, though it is kind of hard to hide on a resume without leaving a time gap, which makes you seem even less employable.)
Post reply on HN