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As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

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Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#281
Why would anybody postdoc in cs or anything software related if they weren’t interested in being a professor? It’s a field where people can literally come from nowhere and make a big impact. It’s not like chemistry or physics where labs are involved or have steep learning curves to be able to function.

Is this just being unwilling to engage? Why would people remain in a training role in todays environment?

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#282

The quote from a prof upset that they only received 28 applicants in about 6 months is pretty rich to read, as someone who is in currently a PhD student. They should be delighted so many people want a job with indefinite length, uncertain prospects, and very little pay. I just recently got a post doc offer from someone, which I will almost certainly turn down because I know the reality: academia sucks, science is gre…

Yes, the whole article is sort of tone deaf: it's like they see a problem but not the actual problem. It's very typical of the whole thing: complaints without actually doing the painful work of restructuring things, because that would cause too much inconvenience for the people who have benefited.

So we have these discussions about pay and supply and demand, which is part of it, but not the nature of the positions themselves, the ponzi funding scheme underlying it, the status hierarchies, none of it. No one wants to cut or line-item justify indirect funds, or turn those postdocs into faculty positions.

The last place I was at this issue came up about being able to have grad students without funding: the argument was if you can't fund them off of grants you shouldn't have them. On the surface, this sounds great, pretty reasonable, until you realize that now you're incentivizing taking grad students to support grants, rather than as an end in itself. Basically you're incentivizing a permanent student culture, because the expected lifecycle of the researcher is maybe 30 years, whereas the student is expected to only be there maybe 5 in theory.

It's so hard for me to wrap my head around it it: the best analogy maybe really is a ponzi scheme. The desired product is the input. It's so broken in so many ways. It's like no one is actually paying for research, they're paying for attracting students, attracting the money to pay for the research, the trappings of research, etc. That actual useful research gets done is a convenient side effect.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#283
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't get me wrong, we are mostly on the same page w.r.t. salaries and what not. That's fair. I do think managers have responsibility to their direct reports. The postdoc situation in th US isn't going to change as long as faculty and post-docs continue producing. So, quite seriously, the solution is for faculty and post-docs to collectively say "we can't get work done under these conditions". Otherwise things will…

Retirement plan sounds basically exactly the same as mine was as a postdoc (and it's probably actually a 403b, not that there's any real difference), though it only took effect after the first year and required you to stay long enough.

As a postdoc I also have the option of contributing to a 403B plan - but my school does NOT match our contributions (specifically for postdocs). For 'regular' employees they match upto 7.5%.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#284
Well part of it is fields not meant to have post docs use them as a way to avoid hiring tenure track folks. Post-docs are meant for the physical sciences, where you can need a few years to learn the physical mechanics of research in a field like biology, chemistry, physics, or other "hard" sciences.

But as a side effect of decisions folks were coerced into making during the last recession, many fields like CS which require very little physical labor now also use post-docs.

Often a post doc is just something given to a sub par PhD student who coasted on the work of others graduates from a "prestigous" program until they can author a few papers ACTUALLY on their own.

On my end, I deeply regret not backpacking around SE Asia doing English lessons the past ten years -- I'd probably be happier, healthier, and have a bigger bank account than the path I took instead. (Aborted PhD -> terrible NGO -> terrible nonprofit -> piecemeal consulting paired with a Bellingcat certification)

If I were going to attempt a PhD a second time, I'd probaby do it in the EU where they clearly define success criteria from the outset, and I'd probably do it after obtaining an EU passport.

(I should not have to consider getting a second passport to find work with my skillset, but people sometimes are stupid enough to interview me, refuse to take my advice, then get butthurt when the Russians skullfuck their servers or their bank goes out of business because they decided to be cute and treat an interview as a free consulting session, but not actually listen to anything I said.)

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#285

>Postdoc salaries are frequently based on what the U.S. National Institutes of Health sets as its standard, “and that’s pretty low,” says Daniel Wolf Savin, a physicist and senior research scientist at Columbia University who is currently struggling to fill five postdoc positions. When hiring, he competes with national labs that offer up to $20,000 more per year in salary. “If we put in a research grant with a postdo…

> Why should a lab with $200k/year to spend on postdoc salaries be unable to hire a single postdoc at $200k/year? Current guidelines stipulate the lab must instead hire 4 postdocs at $50k/year.

The article pretty much answers this. It's impossible to convince the program office that a postdoc is worth $200K/year - that's substantially more than the PI himself probably makes. In reality, the program office will majorly push back if you ask for 10k more than the going rate. You can swing $5k more for a postdoc with some years of postdoc experience, but not more than that.

Given the way the contractual relationship of postdocs are setup, it's actually hard to find mediocre postdocs that survive in the system. Mediocre postdocs would be fired soon enough and a bright fresh PhD from China or India would take their place who's willing to work at $50k/year. That bright Chinese or Indian postdoc cannot easily accept a better paying industry job due to the nature of work visas for those countries so will work as a postdoc for several years till they can finagle a green card.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#286
post #55

I think Western academia is mostly reliant on immigration. Few natives would accept the low pay/high workload combination that is a postdoc, but for an immigrant from a third world country it might be an amazing opportunity. Same reason most fruit and berry pickers also are immigrants.

> but for an immigrant from a third world country it might be an amazing opportunity. In part, because academia is exempt from H1b quotas.

The thing is, almost all postdocs start on J1 visas, not H1b. Most schools hold out the possibility of moving you over to an H1b as an incentive after a few years. It's also complicated by many J1s come with the rider that they must return to their home country for two years and cannot shift to an H1b. There is a pathway to apply for a waiver from the State Department, but I'm told these days the process takes about 18 months to get the waiver - BEFORE you can be eligible to apply for an H1b.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#287

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

Absolutely true. I saw this play out in my lab where we had 1-2 PhD students (including myself) and about 12-16 rotating postdocs. They worked insane hours for very little pay, no benefits, and produced 95% of the output of the lab. Our professor was definitely the "wrong" kind of professor, as about 50% of them left academia entirely and not by choice after being wrung dry of all productive output and then discarded…

> The professor also only hired visa applicants to have extra leverage over them.

For any postdoc that thinks the university has leverage for this reason, if you are able to get a H1B, you can switch employers easily. You are not stuck at whichever company sponsored you.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#288

Sorry to sound elitist, but no reasonable phd graduate that wants to pursue academia would ever want to do their PhD at Clemson university. Only possible exception would be that PI has done Nobel prize level work or the candidate has personal reasons to be in South Carolina. For perspective postdocs, it’s not about money, job security, or job environment . It’s first and foremost potential to be a leader in their fie…

This is "saying the quiet part out loud" in academia. For engineering undergrad, your in-state university (ABET accredited) will usually be your best cost/benefit option (unless you're going to MIT, Stanford, or, for CS only, CMU). For grad school, I believe you'd want to think very carefully about the opportunity cost (and what you want your PhD for) before going anywhere outside of the top 20 (or even top 15) schools in your program. For a postdoc, where your opportunity cost is even higher, I think you need to be in the top 10 (or top 5) for it to be worth it.

There's no reason to do a postdoc at any school outside of the top 10 in your field unless, as you point out, you're working for an exceptionally well-regarded PI who is particularly going to be able to move your career in your desired path.

The people who do postdocs at these institutions are usually foreign, for whom a US postdoc is gold. Come to think of it, I can't recall ever interacting with a university postdoc who was a US citizen -- I've only worked for one "PI-generating PI", who happens to not like hiring postdocs.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the creme of the creme are all working for big companies making big dollars. But I could imagine people in academia thinking they are the a big deal.

That's just for very, very specific fields. For instance, for something very practical, market-ready, basically Engineering I'd say you're correct. For basic research, not at all.

Well ya know, industry solved Fermat’s Last theorem numerous times but only managed to scribble it in the corner of their performance review.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#290

Sorry to sound elitist, but no reasonable phd graduate that wants to pursue academia would ever want to do their PhD at Clemson university. Only possible exception would be that PI has done Nobel prize level work or the candidate has personal reasons to be in South Carolina. For perspective postdocs, it’s not about money, job security, or job environment . It’s first and foremost potential to be a leader in their fie…

This is "saying the quiet part out loud" in academia. For engineering undergrad, your in-state university (ABET accredited) will usually be your best cost/benefit option (unless you're going to MIT, Stanford, or, for CS only, CMU). For grad school, I believe you'd want to think very carefully about the opportunity cost (and what you want your PhD for) before going anywhere outside of the top 20 (or even top 15) schoo…

Postdocs are sometimes used as a mechanism to play games with tenure rather than getting the an academic job. You get a publication “head start” without invoking the countdown, and you already often have a future job in hand early.
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