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As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

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Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#101

Post by ISL »

coldpie wrote: post #71
arethuza wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped doing a PhD after about 5 years - I was a Research Associate in a UK university so I actually got a salary which wasn't too bad but quite a bit below the going rate (I had a few job offers during that time). I left to co-found a start-up - never regretted it as I was "hyper cynical" (a direct quote from a colleague) about the whole academic world and how easy it was to play the "publish or perish" game. I l…

> I like building stuff that people use, not writing papers that mostly went unread. Circa 2010, as I was finishing up my BS in CS, one of my professors asked me to have a meeting in his office. He was trying to recruit me into a graduate program under him, since he liked my performance in his class. I said I wasn't very interested, since I wanted to make things people will actually use. His response was there was a…

That particular argument also falls flat, at least with the given information, since there have been plenty of industry partners in defining the USB specs.

My guess is that if you want to be paid full-time to work on USB, you'll probably find more (and better-paid) positions in industry.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#102

Post by MereInterest »

dagw wrote: post #80
chrisseaton wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people say ABD is 'all but defended' as in you wrote your thesis you just didn't do a defence, some people say ABD is 'all but dissertation' in that you didn't get the point of writing the thesis. That's a pretty big difference. The former is you basically did your entire PhD, the latter is you didn't really start it.

the latter is you didn't really start it. That seems unfair. By the time many people get started on their dissertation they have often done years of research and have gotten several papers published. Starting your dissertation basically means that you're 'done' with your PhD and ready to summerize what you've discovered.

There's also a difference in US and Europe conventions. In Europe, there's typically a 2-year MS followed by a 3-6 year PhD. In the US, these are typically combined into a single 5-8 year PhD program. So an "all but dissertation" phase in Europe is the entirety of the program, it's only the second (and most important) part in a US program.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#103

Post by InefficientRed »

sseagull wrote: post #93
InefficientRed wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see the private sector funding ethnomusicology, philosophy, ecology, social history, ... sseagull mentioned NSF, NIH and DOE. None of those funds ethnomusicology, philosophy, or social history.

You left out ecology (again, which wouldn't be funded by business and I would consider important for society). The NSF also gets somewhat close to the others via Division of Behavioral and Cognitive Sciences, which includes anthropology/archaeology and linguistics.

I am highly suspicious of the need for post-doctoral training in philosophy, ecology, or social history and even more skeptical of the ethics of using tax payer's money to fund those positions.

Ecology is a probably a field where the world would be better off if we re-appropriated post-doc funding to USFS and hired people with bs or even no degrees to do important work on the ground.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#104

Post by throwawayarnty »

Sorry to sound elitist, but no reasonable phd graduate that wants to pursue academia would ever want to do their PhD at Clemson university. Only possible exception would be that PI has done Nobel prize level work or the candidate has personal reasons to be in South Carolina.

For perspective postdocs, it’s not about money, job security, or job environment . It’s first and foremost potential to be a leader in their field.

Plenty of phd graduates are willing to postdoc at MIT or work with a Nobel laureate for starvation wages and intense work environments.

Clemson university just can’t compete.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#105

Post by coldpie »

feet wrote: post #97
coldpie wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like building stuff that people use, not writing papers that mostly went unread. Circa 2010, as I was finishing up my BS in CS, one of my professors asked me to have a meeting in his office. He was trying to recruit me into a graduate program under him, since he liked my performance in his class. I said I wasn't very interested, since I wanted to make things people will actually use. His response was there was a…

I think this is a short sighted perspective. Basic research is important and has farther reaching impacts than a CRUD web app. Just because you don't see immediate impact doesn't mean it isn't there

Sure, I'm glad people do that work. But it's not for me.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#106

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

persedes wrote: post #62
bjourne wrote: post #55

I think Western academia is mostly reliant on immigration. Few natives would accept the low pay/high workload combination that is a postdoc, but for an immigrant from a third world country it might be an amazing opportunity. Same reason most fruit and berry pickers also are immigrants.

Don't even know where to begin...but according to this [1] less than 5% of students in the US are international students. 1 - https://www.fwd.us/news/international-students/

Your statistic must be for undergrads, where the situation is very different.

In STEM grad school, no more than half the people are from the US, and it could easily be as low as 25%, depending where you are.

Actually, the very source you cited agrees, roughly:

> international students earned nearly half of all Master’s and Doctor’s STEM degrees awarded in 2019

I suspect that the number "5%" is also too low even at the undergrad level, if you restrict attention to, say, the top 20 universities.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#107

Post by Master_Odin »

april_22 wrote: post #47
biophysboy wrote: post #33

The quote from a prof upset that they only received 28 applicants in about 6 months is pretty rich to read, as someone who is in currently a PhD student. They should be delighted so many people want a job with indefinite length, uncertain prospects, and very little pay. I just recently got a post doc offer from someone, which I will almost certainly turn down because I know the reality: academia sucks, science is gre…

I think what really changed is that people who have a PhD nowadays certainly also have great coding skills and the latter is so much more attractive job wise

Fair number of the CS PhD students I knew while I was there were not good coders, with professors being even worse at it. There's no incentive to write good code, just that it "functions".

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#108

Post by chrisseaton »

MereInterest wrote: post #102
dagw wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the latter is you didn't really start it. That seems unfair. By the time many people get started on their dissertation they have often done years of research and have gotten several papers published. Starting your dissertation basically means that you're 'done' with your PhD and ready to summerize what you've discovered.

There's also a difference in US and Europe conventions. In Europe, there's typically a 2-year MS followed by a 3-6 year PhD. In the US, these are typically combined into a single 5-8 year PhD program. So an "all but dissertation" phase in Europe is the entirety of the program, it's only the second (and most important) part in a US program.

Yeah, and so if you skip the masters then day one of your PhD is the start of your dissertation.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#109

Post by dagw »

chrisseaton wrote: post #108
MereInterest wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a difference in US and Europe conventions. In Europe, there's typically a 2-year MS followed by a 3-6 year PhD. In the US, these are typically combined into a single 5-8 year PhD program. So an "all but dissertation" phase in Europe is the entirety of the program, it's only the second (and most important) part in a US program.

Yeah, and so if you skip the masters then day one of your PhD is the start of your dissertation.

I though dissertation referred to the final written document you had to produce to get your PhD. Most people I know with PhDs stared writing that during the last year of the PhD program.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#110

Post by kmmlng »

EEBio wrote: post #75
kmmlng wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PhD can mean a lot of different things. Personally, I'm employed as a research associate while doing a PhD, which in theory means I should do the PhD as part of my job. In practice, I do not get to do any actual research during the job and the PhD is relegated to weekends. What I find curious: I get paid to do lots of things which are clearly complete nonsense, but the funding comes with the requirement that these…

What are the nonsensical activities you get paid to do?

For example solving specific problems in a data-driven way when there is no data and there never will be any data.

Developing all sorts of platforms that will theoretically benefit the public / researchers / whoever, but in actuality will never be used by anyone and in fact will be shut down as soon as the corresponding project ends.

Those are the two generic examples I can think of, for everything else I'd have to give too much context.

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