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As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

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Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#221

Post by enriquto »

pfortuny wrote: post #200
enriquto wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role Where do you get these numbers from? This is not at all like that in Europe. A postdoc gets (say, in France) 30k per year, doing a calm, interesting job and paid travel to a couple of conferences per year, with almost total freedom to choose their daily schedule. This is not a high salary, but it is c…

Yep, for exactly two or three years tops.

What do you mean? The university will be happy to have you around for such a cheap price as long as you want.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#222

Post by chrisseaton »

sky-kedge0749 wrote: post #204
chrisseaton wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and so if you skip the masters then day one of your PhD is the start of your dissertation.

In practice in the U.S. the early part of a PhD program can be very similar to a master's. It's relatively common for people who leave PhD programs to walk away with a master's degree they didn't intend to get. It's called "mastering out."

Yes you can also leave with an MPhil in the UK if it goes wrong.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#223

Post by screye »

I have always seen Postdocs as a 'desperation' position. The struggle to recruit post-docs might indicate healthier alternatives for phds instead of living life as white-collar slaves.

I am surprised that universities haven't created formal part-academia-part-industry partnerships with nearby companies just yet. Instead we are stuck with post-docs and adjunct roles, which get you the worst of both worlds.

Good Riddance.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#224

Post by cycomanic »

Ironically when I was a postdoc in Australia, where you get paid on the same (good) payscale as other academics (you could even be promoted to professor level on a non permanent "postdoc" position), industry managers (from collaborators) always complained about the high salaries, which made it less attractive for people to move to industry.

Since I moved to Sweden I see much more issues trying to recruit postdocs. We still get reasonable number of applicants, but they are very low quality. We have been hiring PhD instead, who are much better generally (most of the postdoc applicants for positions where we looked for both, wouldn't have made the cut amongst the PhDs).

I blame that on several factors,

1. We are in a research area where our PhDs can go to industry earning 6 figures (at least in the US) so many opportunities for them if they look around

2. An increasing percentage of funding comes from competitive grants, so there are lots of postdoc positions. So even if applicants want to stay in academia if they are good they can be very picky.

3. A more general frustration with funding processes and universities continuously increasing academic workload, which academics are more open about. So PhDs see the downsides of sticking around more clearly.

I should say that I agree with the article that all this is good because it might be the only way things will change

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#225

Post by throwawaymaths »

borroka wrote: post #157
slurpmaker wrote: post #42

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

Very understandable. I worked as a post doc for 8 years, with a paltry salary, I must say I had excellent advisors, so the experience was professionally enjoyable and I had the opportunity to sharpen my skills, travel the world for work, and have fun in general. But in spite of an excellent CV, with the caveat that I had no affiliations with top schools and was not part of any in-group--I did not know how important b…

> But in spite of an excellent CV, with the caveat that I had no affiliations with top schools and was not part of any in-group--I did not know how important both would be for an academic career, I though my many well-cited publications and clear and long-term research plans would have been enough.

Even those are not enough. I had all of those (great undergrad and grad school pedigree, postdoc with a novel laureate, publications...) You need to have a final boss who will go to bat for you, unfortunately the Nobel laureate was 84 and more into playing slots at the Indian casino/fucking around in the lab than he was in advocating for my career.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#226

Post by m463 »

mvh wrote: post #166
enriquto wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role Where do you get these numbers from? This is not at all like that in Europe. A postdoc gets (say, in France) 30k per year, doing a calm, interesting job and paid travel to a couple of conferences per year, with almost total freedom to choose their daily schedule. This is not a high salary, but it is c…

I'm a PhD student in CS in the USA. At my school in Boston, we are paid a ~40K USD/yr stipend. My friends in industry make a _minimum_ of 120k/yr, and some make considerably more than that (think 200k+), in junior / "entry-level" positions. When I complete the PhD, if I go to industry in the USA, my income will probably be similar to that of my friends who will have been in industry the entire time (and gotten steady…

A friend of mine got a phd and he told me the main benefit was that he had lots more opportunities. He was always called back for job interviews and had lots more positions available. His wife, a nurse, basically supported him while he was getting the degree.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#227

Post by gww »

whimsicalism wrote: post #189
gww wrote: post #115

In addition to terrible compensation, I think another common issue for a post-doc is that they are not afforded the same protections as a graduate student. In the places I have worked the grad students are usually protected by the university, their committees, etc. Post-docs on the other hand are usually contract workers and they can be fired without any recourse. Usually with two to four weeks compensation. It gives…

Interesting. I know graduate students at my alma mater are now unionized, I wonder if that can cover post docs as well.

I think some places do have post doc unions and it is sometimes combined with graduate student unions. However, in the places I have been it sadly does not exist.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#228

Post by ImprobableTruth »

chrisseaton wrote: post #11
refurb wrote: post #10

Supply and demand. We produce more PhDs than needed by either academia or industry. Hence, the burden of post-docs just grow (I was talking to a biology PhD who said 5-6 years of post-doc was typical, for chemistry I've seen people do 2).

> We produce more PhDs than needed by either academia or industry. I don't think so - industry can't hire enough PhDs. In my field (programming languages) shortage of qualified people is a bit of a problem at the moment! We wish there were more being produced.

Do you think this shortage might be very recent/rather localized? It seems to me as if there are comparatively few places that hire PL folks.

I'm a (relatively early on) grad student at a chair that does PL and ML, and it's been pretty depressing to look up alumni or authors of papers more on the PL/FM side and seeing those that left academia at 'normal' jobs that seem unrelated to PL, whereas the vast majority of people more on the ML side work directly with it. I like PLT a lot, but especially if you're not at a top school it seems like quite a gamble.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#229

Post by travisporter »

gautamdivgi wrote: post #160
slurpmaker wrote: post #42

Make it make sense. Offer Postdocs an actual career path not based on broken tenure and disposable adjunct professor roles, with hundreds if not thousands of applicants. Why would someone, with any field of study, be a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role? Moreso, post doc'ing for the wrong professor can ruin your career, why risk that eithe…

I was an industry person who wanted to transition to academia. I just decided against it obviously. I liked all the aspects you pointed out above. The one thing that is missed is that most places are publishing sweatshops where the pay and work conditions are horrible. The “boss” or the PI has unlimited control and can destroy your career. The problems are also way out of the ordinary. I’d like to draw a parallel wit…

Is the whole patent clerk discovering stuff in their free time still possible? I know people say do what you love etc but I’ve found something I kinda like as a day job but I’d rather be doing astronomy.

Re: As professors struggle to recruit postdocs, calls for change in academia

#230

Post by cycomanic »

WesleyLivesay wrote: post #126
enriquto wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a "scum of the earth" post doc for 1/5th the salary and double the hours required as a junior python developer role Where do you get these numbers from? This is not at all like that in Europe. A postdoc gets (say, in France) 30k per year, doing a calm, interesting job and paid travel to a couple of conferences per year, with almost total freedom to choose their daily schedule. This is not a high salary, but it is c…

I think this is very much a uniquely American article and comment. I believe in many other nations the situation is different on both sides. Postdocs are treated different and get more pay, junior developers get paid less.

I agree with you. I don't know why but the most disfunctional labs I know about are all in the US (Prof putting meetings on sat morning so everyone comes in to work on weekends...), although I know of some pretty bad places in Switzerland as well. You're also correct postdoc salaries higher in Europe (and developer ones are lower). However, there is definitely a problem finding postdocs also here. I should say that this seems to be not just academia, all my industry colleagues are desperate for applicants.
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