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Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

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Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#161

Post by clarkevans »

nkassis wrote: post #48
pork wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast vast majority of people want to click on the Firefox icon and go to Facebook. People have lives that are busy, and the computer is a tool to get a job done. How many people "explore" the engine of their cars? Not many.

What about something as simple as changing you screensaver? My few years working as a sysadmin in a maintenance department at a University (read low tech knowledge) tells me people who care if they couldn't change something as simple as that yet you can't do that in Ubuntu 11.10. Changing fonts is another thing that's pretty annoying in this release but not as big a miss as the screen saver to most people. I hit thos…

> What about something as simple as changing you screensaver?

In over a dozen years, I've never heard my wife ask me: "how do I change my screen saver?". In over 30 years, I've never heard either of my parents say: "how do I change my screen saver?" I've also never heard this question from aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, cousins, nieces nor nephews. It's not for lack of questions. At holiday events I wear the T-Shirt that says: "Yes. I'm a software Engineer. No. I will not fix your computer".

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#162

Post by pyre »

dfc wrote: post #97
vidarh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as a developer I got over wanting to tune everything about 10 years ago. I want things to mostly just work, and Ubuntu does that for the most part. I've yet to run into any situation where using Ubuntu has constrained me in any way vs. using another Linux distribution (and I've used a bunch of different ones over the years).

What does not mostly work from a vanilla debioan install?

Last time I tried, it wouldn't net install on a system that needed wifi + WPA to get internet access...

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#163

Post by pyre »

sofuture wrote: post #5

I think Ubuntu should zag where Apple zags. I think they're doing it right. They're in a unique position to take an Apple-like path. I, for one, applaud what they're doing, as much as it terrifies all the half-power-users (I don't mean that as a slight, I do think it's a little silly to get upset about Ubuntu's default WM and claim to 'understand UNIX').

I think there were be less complaints about Unity if it didn't feel like an unfinished, half-baked piece of software. There are numerous issues with it that probably should have been solved before deciding that it was ready for 'prime time.' In trying to forcibly push everyone in the direction that they want to go, they may just sour a lot of people to the platform... Oops!

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#164

Post by ricardobeat »

Peaker wrote: post #122
methodin wrote: post #62

I really don't agree with this sentiment at all. There are infinite Linux distros out there to play with that are more inline with power users. Ubuntu is for a completely different crowd so what would be the point of just merging into that nexus? The world doesn't need another power-user Linux distro. It needs a Linux distro that isn't painful to use for the regular people.

My dad is not a power user -- and he had liked Ubuntu, until the Unity interface.

Because people don't like change. I bet he'd hate going from Windows 3.1 to 95 too.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#165

Post by Peaker »

ricardobeat wrote: post #164
Peaker wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad is not a power user -- and he had liked Ubuntu, until the Unity interface.

Because people don't like change. I bet he'd hate going from Windows 3.1 to 95 too.

That might be the case, but given that Unity is inferior to the previous desktop in so many ways, it might also be that.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#166

Post by technomancy »

morsch wrote: post #139
technomancy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be a good point if it weren't already so simple to build user interfaces that are simultaneously obvious to newbies while at the same time being ridiculously extensible. You just build it in a language that exposes a repl. Mozilla doesn't even do a particularly good job at this (given how they bury the replness), and it's still fostered a plugin ecosystem that has kept it competitive despite competitors ea…

Having a REPL and being extensible seem like totally orthogonal concepts to me. You can have a REPL and be hardly extensible. You can lack a REPL and be extremely extensible. If anything, the REPL is going to expose interfaces that enable extensibility; it's those APIs that are important, not the existance of an REPL.

Technically they are orthogonal, but in practice if you have a repl implementation that's well done, it will be used by the developers, and the developers will ensure that the functionality they need to implement the project is accessible through it. The developers can still screw things up, but it's a factor that encourages them to do the right thing through basic dogfooding.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#167

Post by guard-of-terra »

ticks wrote: post #44
pork wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast vast majority of people want to click on the Firefox icon and go to Facebook. People have lives that are busy, and the computer is a tool to get a job done. How many people "explore" the engine of their cars? Not many.

Yep. Ubuntu's obviously aiming their main product at the mainstream these days, and developers aren't in that mainstream. That said, Unity might deter the most enthusiastic newbies, the sort that go on to inhabit support forums and help others.

But do the mainstream buy it? What's their selling point aimed at them?

Everybody who I know who uses or tries ubuntu is either: - A software developer of some kind. - An advanced or else adventurous user who wants perspective. - A family member of one of the above.

Neither of those is "mainstream" in that sense. And making product mainly used by X while keeping Z in mind is a troublesome tactic.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#168

Post by vacri »

wes-exp wrote: post #156
jiggy2011 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is: Even power users usually want consistency and ease of use. The main advantage of Ubuntu is that it is the best supported Linux distro out there when it comes to software. For allot of desktop centric software , supporting Linux basically means supporting Ubuntu and possibly fedora. Nobody wants to mess with source tarballs just to install the latest video player. I'm a developer but I still want the o…

This. At least with Ubuntu, there is a large enough user base that there is software available for it that is tested and actually works (conveniently available as a binary .deb). Also, bugs tend to be identified and fixed, again due to the size of the community. If you run into a problem, often times there is already a forum post somewhere with a solution. If developers are to use an obscure "power user" distribution…

Obscure distributions? Source tarballs? What are you two on about?

Debian, Ubuntu's daddy, is the creator of the apt system. You'd be insane to say it's not a distribution for power users. Then there's other major distros with large user bases. Don't blame Ubuntu if you've never looked beyond its borders.

Perhaps what's needed is a "Devbuntu" that relies on most of the same components as Ubuntu, but targets power users.

Just use Debian.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#169

Post by Zak »

suivix wrote: post #152
Jeema3000 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Far too often things break between releases and/or upgrades." I recently tried to upgrade my older 9.10 install to 10.4 LTS. I got a bunch of errors about x.org upon upgrade (I think maybe because I downloaded and installed Nvidia's Linux driver a while ago), and yep you guessed it - hosed system upon reboot. These sort of showstopper problems should not be occurring - not in the year 2011. Totally inexcusable as fa…

I think they are rushing to keep up with the mainstream OSes and are skirting the details in the process.

I don't understand the perception that they were falling behind. Sure, Mac OS has a more polished UI than Gnome 2, but Windows doesn't.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#170

Post by carussell »

evan_ wrote: post #107
vacri wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In response to 2), I use a friends mac and think "wtf were they thinking" quite often. Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border? Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability? Apple makes a nice bit of kit, but please, can we stop with pretending they've got it perfect?

your first two complaints are actually fixed in Lion- and I have to disagree with your third. There's nothing in OS X you need to use a keyboard shortcut to do, and it's easy to find the shortcut for a menu item- it's displayed on the right side of the menu.

Try opening Finder or any other sufficiently "native" application, opening one of the menus in the menu bar, then tapping alt (option).
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