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Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

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Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#131

Post by sbuk »

ootachi wrote: post #127
Groxx wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to say that too. If anything, it keeps decreasing - the first app-capable iOS devices had no app store, and the barrier to entry for programming on either system keeps dropping (the SDKs and even the IDEs are free, for instance). The only claim I can see is the emergence of the OSX App Store - big shocker there, given the success on iOS - but that hasn't resulted in a lockdown of regular installs, and I doubt…

Many reasons: Apple clearly sees iOS and its locked-down environment as the future and Mac OS X as the past. Given that, we can conclude that the overall openness of Apple's offerings will decrease as they focus their efforts on iOS. Xcode is for-pay now, while it was free earlier. Apple keeps breaking SIMBL. Debuggers now need to be signed by Apple or self-signed; either way, it's a pain. QuickTime X is no longer ex…

>> Xcode is for-pay now, while it was free earlier.

It's back to being free if you have installed Lion.

>> Apple keeps breaking SIMBL.

SIMBL is a non-standard 3rd party framework. It would be more correct to say that SIMBL isn't keeping up with OS X development.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#132

Post by Groxx »

ootachi wrote: post #127
Groxx wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to say that too. If anything, it keeps decreasing - the first app-capable iOS devices had no app store, and the barrier to entry for programming on either system keeps dropping (the SDKs and even the IDEs are free, for instance). The only claim I can see is the emergence of the OSX App Store - big shocker there, given the success on iOS - but that hasn't resulted in a lockdown of regular installs, and I doubt…

Many reasons: Apple clearly sees iOS and its locked-down environment as the future and Mac OS X as the past. Given that, we can conclude that the overall openness of Apple's offerings will decrease as they focus their efforts on iOS. Xcode is for-pay now, while it was free earlier. Apple keeps breaking SIMBL. Debuggers now need to be signed by Apple or self-signed; either way, it's a pain. QuickTime X is no longer ex…

>Apple clearly sees iOS and its locked-down environment as the future and Mac OS X as the past

Citation needed? Or are you pulling that from OSX getting a dose of iOS UI? The existence of the app store is merely a sign that they make money from the iOS one, and wish to make more money.

SIMBL is a hack used to load hacks (a fantastically useful one, don't get me wrong there). Its very nature is fragile, and Apple has zero responsibility to make sure it continues to work.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#133

Post by sbuk »

vacri wrote: post #109
eropple wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Default browser can't fullscreen/kiosk mode? Resize from only one corner, not any border? Neither is true in 10.7. Heavy reliance on keystrokes with low discoverability? For the most part, keystrokes follow similar patterns from application to application. There are inconsistencies (some applications use ctrl-tab to switch tabs, some use ctrl-pgup/pgdn) but for the most part it's self-consistent. (There are some nice…

I haven't used 10.7, but still, that those things were ommitted for so long is straight-out bizarre.

It depends where you are coming from I suppose. Kiosk mode until recently didn't really fit in with the Mac (going way back to System 1.0 days) work flow, but when Apple integrated multiple desktop into OS X, it shifted the workflow enough to allow for kiosked windows to inhabit their own 'space'. It's worth checking out as it's quite an elegant solution. I, and I think the vast majority of Mac users would agree on the resizing point and thankfully it has been addressed, but it's worth remembering that the original idea behind one location to resize windows was overall simplicity. Whether or not simplicity was achieved however is an entirely different thing, and I imagine that we'd agree that it wasn't! WRT to short cut keys, they have always be displayed in the menu. Since the menu bar is the primary way that many functions are initially accessed, the idea is that eventually the users will learn them through exposure, which in fact is exactly the same way that most desktop UI educate users. The Wiki entry on the command key make for "intersting" (well, to us geeks mainly!) reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_key#The_origin_of_.22.E...

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#134

Post by jiggy2011 »

RK wrote: post #100

I think part of Shuttleworth's philosophy is that he wants Ubuntu to be(come) an OS that the rest of the world can use, not just the traditional Linux power users, but even the emerging computer markets that may not be able to afford the latest and greatest hardware with a proprietary OS.

Emerging markets pherhaps, although I think that most of these just use pirated Windows already.

The problem is that it isn't "an OS the rest of the world can use" for issues not related to the UI.

Simply saying "It's like Mac/Windows but uglier with less software and more issues" isn't a compelling sales pitch to anybody.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#135

Post by jiggy2011 »

vacri wrote: post #67

If people want a different linux experience to Ubuntu's offering, they're in luck, there are hundreds: http://distrowatch.com/ Ubuntu has specifically stated that they're aiming for the layperson, not the power user. If you cut your teeth on ubuntu and want more power in your linux box... try out another distro.

The problem is: Even power users usually want consistency and ease of use.

The main advantage of Ubuntu is that it is the best supported Linux distro out there when it comes to software.

For allot of desktop centric software , supporting Linux basically means supporting Ubuntu and possibly fedora.

Nobody wants to mess with source tarballs just to install the latest video player.

I'm a developer but I still want the option to be a "dumb user" allot of the time when I'm doing tasks like using the web / playing music etc.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#136

Post by gmt2027 »

skystorm wrote: post #103
lsc wrote: post #89

eh, personally, I also hate unity. I am a linux SysAdmin, so if I want to go muck around in the internals or install and configure my own window manager, sure, I can. But that's not why I use ubuntu on the desktop. I use ubuntu on the desktop because it just works. If I want to tinker with Linux, I can do it on a server and get paid for it. With older versions of ubuntu? heck, getting drivers is usually easier than w…

I was in the same boat and ended up switching to Xubuntu -- and I don't regret it for one second. I get all the good stuff ("just works") with a sleek, customizable UI, that also happens to be very frugal wrt. system resources. It's a win-win really. :)

After the last upgrade, I've been forced to abandon Unity and Gnome3 for Xmonad. I'm seriously considering another distro like ArchLinux. Xubuntu may just be the solution - for now anyway.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#137

Post by jiggy2011 »

tuananh wrote: post #4

They go for the 99%. _majority_ aren't _power user_ so if they make it simple, more people would jump on the boat

Making the Linux desktop simpler requires much more than changing the UI. More reliable drivers for common hardware and availability of good, simple software for tasks like video/photo/music editing are way more important.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#138

Post by saint-loup »

Rusky wrote: post #12
div wrote: post #2

I don't really understand what the author is trying to say. Granted, it's been a while since I used Ubuntu, but as a developer I mainly live in my editor and terminal. Anything I ever wanted is just an apt-get away and is mostly installed in a sensible way. Ubuntu simplifying desktop features and changing defaults to be easier for users like my mom sounds like a great thing to happen to Linux. That stuff is mostly or…

The problem is that Unity doesn't have much in the way of deviation from the standard configuration. They're not just changing defaults, they're removing everything else. This is a problem not for people who are already developers, because they will just install something else and move on, but for new users who won't have anything to discover. The article said "In fact I think Linux has a tendency to encourage averag…

>>> "In fact I think Linux has a tendency to encourage average computer users to become power users once they spend some time with it."

I think this is an important general point. I've got no real opinion on the evolution of Ubuntu, but we must stop thinking about beginners and expert users as rigid, separated categories. First, there are many degrees and variations on the tech savviness scale. Second, people can learn. Granted, many people won't, since they don't care about the tools they use. But others will learn, if you give them computers that don't push toward laziness and reduce the steepness of the learning curve.

I think Mac OS, in some aspects, is a good example of empowering. For years, Preview and iPhoto had basic tools for editing pictures that Windows lacked. You can adjust saturation, levels, and so on. You can realize that these tinkerings can be not hugely complicated. And if, as a newbie, you end up stuck in Photoshop someday, you will be less scared and hopeless than if you had never used Preview.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#139

Post by morsch »

technomancy wrote: post #101
PerryCox wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't agree more. Lots of people are panicking about Unity because it's not as configurable as Gnome use to be, but they forget that we're in a transition period. Unity is brand spanking new, and I'm sure it'll have more configuration options in the future.

That might be a good point if it weren't already so simple to build user interfaces that are simultaneously obvious to newbies while at the same time being ridiculously extensible. You just build it in a language that exposes a repl. Mozilla doesn't even do a particularly good job at this (given how they bury the replness), and it's still fostered a plugin ecosystem that has kept it competitive despite competitors ea…

Having a REPL and being extensible seem like totally orthogonal concepts to me. You can have a REPL and be hardly extensible. You can lack a REPL and be extremely extensible. If anything, the REPL is going to expose interfaces that enable extensibility; it's those APIs that are important, not the existance of an REPL.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#140

Post by spinchange »

pork wrote: post #32
Rusky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Unity doesn't have much in the way of deviation from the standard configuration. They're not just changing defaults, they're removing everything else. This is a problem not for people who are already developers, because they will just install something else and move on, but for new users who won't have anything to discover. The article said "In fact I think Linux has a tendency to encourage averag…

The vast vast majority of people want to click on the Firefox icon and go to Facebook. People have lives that are busy, and the computer is a tool to get a job done. How many people "explore" the engine of their cars? Not many.

Who are these vast majorities that want to stay completely divorced from using their computer in a meaningful way, but want to run Linux on it?
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