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What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

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Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#61
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? In America, Buddhism tends to be portrayed in this sort of light: basically, that Buddhism makes no exclusivist truth claims. But for a Mahayana Buddhist to make the Bodhisattva Vow in the context of the Four Noble Truths necessarily entails teaching others about certain things which are True, to the exclusion of things which…

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? The hand pointing to the moon is not the moon. ``Come, Salha, do not be satisfied with hearsay or with tradition or with legendary lore or with what has come down in scriptures or with conjecture or with logical inference or with weighing evidence or with a liking for a view after pondering it or with someone else's ability or…

The Buddha is saying not to follow something on the basis of externals, but rather on one's own self testing. That the Buddha arrived at the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path through such testing is of importance.

If we return to the Pali scriptures, we can see that although the Buddha states that the question of God/gods is in the realm of "unanswerable questions," that even if they did exist they would ultimately undergo death and rebirth, albeit perhaps in an unimaginably long time frame from the perspective of humans. He considers debates over deities pointless, _because even they are subject to the truths he espouses_. Is this not a truth claim that contradicts most theistic religions? Is this not a truth claim to the supersession of Buddhist truth over others? (Forgive me, but my copy is in another location so I can't give an exact reference.)

Although the view of deities in Buddhism differs between schools, the general understanding of Buddhism is that such belief is not conducive to enlightenment. This is indeed an exclusivist truth claim to the superiority of the Buddhist practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#63
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

The "market" is actually a big element of Buddhism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls stage 10

Buddhism typically evokes the image of monks sitting in caves. This is more characteristic of Theravada Buddhism. Mahayana Buddhism is about bringing the Buddhist way into all aspects of life. In Zen(Mahayana branch) temples for example, simply washing the dishes is an art in itself.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#64
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

If Budhhism claims that attachment to physical things is bad for people, and that it is bad to have a livelihood based on doing bad things to people, then having a livelihood based on encouraging physical attachments is contrary to being a good Budhhist. Of course, I've heard Eastern thought shuns black and white logic, so maybe my argument is wrong because it is logical.

That's Theravada Buddhism. The Mahayana branch which includes Zen, and Tibetan Buddhism embraces attachment. How are you supposed to cultivate empathy and compassion without attachment?

Cultivating "witnessing detachment" is still fundamental to these traditions. It's just considered incomplete without a cultivation of heart.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#65
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems. It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harme…

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? In America, Buddhism tends to be portrayed in this sort of light: basically, that Buddhism makes no exclusivist truth claims. But for a Mahayana Buddhist to make the Bodhisattva Vow in the context of the Four Noble Truths necessarily entails teaching others about certain things which are True, to the exclusion of things which…

[deleted]

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#67
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steve Jobs, imperfect. His core, perfection itself. Old pond, droid jumps in.

plop!

For the silly people downvoting, this is a reference to a Japanese Haiku.

Old pond, frog jumps in - plop!

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#68
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth? The hand pointing to the moon is not the moon. ``Come, Salha, do not be satisfied with hearsay or with tradition or with legendary lore or with what has come down in scriptures or with conjecture or with logical inference or with weighing evidence or with a liking for a view after pondering it or with someone else's ability or…

So, Buddhism agrees with Einstein rather than Heisenberg? Einstein: The moon is there whether or not anyone is looking at it. Heisenberg: The moon may not be there if there isn't anyone looking at it. Buddhism: The hand pointing to the moon is not the moon.

"The pointing finger is not the moon" has never, IME, been taken to make ontological claims of any kind about the moon, except that it's not the finger pointed at it. It means the same thing as, "The map is not the territory," and not, "Because this map shows rivers and towns in these locations, such rivers and towns must exist."

Your idea of a thing is simply and solely your idea of the thing; the thing, itself, is simply and solely the thing, itself. Buddhism just suggests out that you conflate them at your peril (to the extent, of course, that Buddhism has a notion of "peril").

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#69
post #68
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, Buddhism agrees with Einstein rather than Heisenberg? Einstein: The moon is there whether or not anyone is looking at it. Heisenberg: The moon may not be there if there isn't anyone looking at it. Buddhism: The hand pointing to the moon is not the moon.

"The pointing finger is not the moon" has never, IME, been taken to make ontological claims of any kind about the moon, except that it's not the finger pointed at it. It means the same thing as, "The map is not the territory," and not, "Because this map shows rivers and towns in these locations, such rivers and towns must exist." Your idea of a thing is simply and solely your idea of the thing; the thing, itself, is…

Oh. I took it to mean that Buddhism is the quest for truth not the truth.
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