Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

blogs.plos.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 69 posts

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#31

Post by Enthusiastic »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24
Arjuna wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

clearly, 99.9% of what Jobs did was not marketing.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#33

Post by michaelochurch »

codex wrote: post #29
michaelochurch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate to this "Jobs wasn't a real Buddhist" nonsense because I practice Buddhist meditation and still can have a difficult personality. (I'm extremely intense and opinionated, to the point of being moralistic.) I was a lot worse when I had no spiritual path. The fact that I still have personal difficulties (as nearly everyone does, including most Buddhists) does not mean that my practice has been without value…

This is a bit off topic, but can you suggest accessible meditation resources for the beginner? Are books sufficient, or is a teacher necessary?

You don't need a 1:1 teacher but I recommend starting with a community of sorts, with classes led by a teacher. Find a Buddhist prayer center. Don't worry if you don't believe in God or religious dogma; none of that's important with the communities you're trying to enter. (Buddhism is theologically agnostic, and although the religious believes in past lives, you won't be rejected by Buddhist communities if you don't believe in past lives or reincarnation.)

Once you've gained a sense of what approaches work for you, it's a good idea to get some books and study them. One great thing about zen/meditation books is that you can read them every year and they're still fresh-- there are things in them that you didn't pick up the last time because you weren't ready for them.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#34

Post by mechnik »

codex wrote: post #29
michaelochurch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate to this "Jobs wasn't a real Buddhist" nonsense because I practice Buddhist meditation and still can have a difficult personality. (I'm extremely intense and opinionated, to the point of being moralistic.) I was a lot worse when I had no spiritual path. The fact that I still have personal difficulties (as nearly everyone does, including most Buddhists) does not mean that my practice has been without value…

This is a bit off topic, but can you suggest accessible meditation resources for the beginner? Are books sufficient, or is a teacher necessary?

The OP article is as good exposition of Buddhist thought and practice as you will find. Shunryu Suzuki mentioned in it was an exponent of the Soto school of Zen which emphasizes 'just sitting'. Just that, sit with straight back. Look up 'seiza' for more information if you wish, but no need to get too technical. Also, I believe there are online meditation support groups if none are available near you.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#35

Post by yters »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24
Arjuna wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

If Budhhism claims that attachment to physical things is bad for people, and that it is bad to have a livelihood based on doing bad things to people, then having a livelihood based on encouraging physical attachments is contrary to being a good Budhhist.

Of course, I've heard Eastern thought shuns black and white logic, so maybe my argument is wrong because it is logical.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#36

Post by muraiki »

msbarnett wrote: post #25
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

What's your point? Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems. It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harme…

So if Buddhism does not assert that it is the One True Path, what's the Fourth Noble Truth?

In America, Buddhism tends to be portrayed in this sort of light: basically, that Buddhism makes no exclusivist truth claims. But for a Mahayana Buddhist to make the Bodhisattva Vow in the context of the Four Noble Truths necessarily entails teaching others about certain things which are True, to the exclusion of things which are false (belief in Jesus or Allah or Vishnu etc) Perhaps the missionary form of this is not quite equivalent to, say, Evangelical Protestantism, but it's there.

One concept within Mahayana Buddhism is that of Skillful Means, the idea that sometimes a teacher has to use or allow an expedient practice even if it's not the "highest" truth. So the Zen Buddhists say that all the Shin Buddhists are ok, because it's just skillful means for them to believe in the salvific power of Amida Buddha and next life they'll have a better chance at encountering the fullness of Zen. Or maybe their recitation of the nembutsu is just some sort of meditative practice that happens to produce desirable Buddhist qualities. Nevermind that this is totally revisionist to the Shin understanding.

Yes, you can be angry and discompassionate and attached to worldly things and "be Buddhist." But if you die that way you probably won't be reborn as a human. Maybe as a hungry ghost or a fighting demon. :)

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#37

Post by mechnik »

bfrs wrote: post #14

To me Zen seems like a lot of vague mumbo-jumbo. It can be interpreted any which way you want, making it sometimes seem wise and profound. The Buddhism I learned is quite simple and clear. It just boils down to two Golden Rules: 1. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated. 2. The Golden Mean: Everything in moderation, nothing in excess. and the related commentary as to why these are good policies to fo…

Zen first flowered in Japan during the Kamakura period because it appealed to samurai as a no-nonsense approach to dealing with that time period's problems (i.e. Mongol invasion) Over the years, the mumbo-jumbo factor accrues, but there are always reformers who try to keep Zen practice relevant (e.g. Shunryu Suzuki).

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#38

Post by muraiki »

michaelochurch wrote: post #18
codex wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are limits to Buddhism. It can't change your sexual orientation; it can't make you immune to pain, and, apparently, it can't eliminate temper--especially if you're ancestors are from herder societies, which evolved temper to protect their vulnerable assets. Certain things are predominately innate.

I don't know if this is true, but it's irrelevant. Sexual orientation: Buddhism's stance on sexual morality is pretty simple. No rape and no deception (cheating on a partner, sex with someone underage, and misleading a person to acquire sex all qualify as "deception"). There aren't rules about before vs. after marriage or gender. Buddhism is focused on practicality and harmony, not adherence to assertedly eternal rul…

It's of note that the Dalai Lama said that homosexuality "is generally considered sexual misconduct" for Buddhists.

http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm

Something that complicates this discussion is that there are many varied forms of Buddhism, sometimes saying seemingly contradictory things. While it's important to be able to use the term "Buddhism" for the sake of conversation, we have to be careful of our scope in making claims.

To place this in perhaps more culturally familiar terms for Americans: the Hinayana (even this term is controversial) vs Mahayana branches are as different as Catholics and Protestants, with the Mahayana schools being basically as diverse as Protestantism.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#39

Post by wisty »

msbarnett wrote: post #25
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

What's your point? Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems. It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harme…

Luke 11:23 - "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters."

Some religions are more exclusive than others. If you've been (or are) a Protestant Christian (depending on the denomination, of course), you may think of religions as exclusive belief systems. It's like political parties - you join one because it's right about everything, then sneer at the others which are just there to mislead the innocents. Then you join a faction in the party, because the rest of the party has fallen from the true path (though presumably not enough to damn them to hell).

"Religion" is an abstract word, not a concrete one. It can have different meanings. Some religions are exclusive belief systems (like many political parties); others are more like philosophies with a bit of mysticism thrown in. It's only their ability to retain adherents, and their attempts to explain the mystical that make us call them "religions".

I don't think I've ever met a self-identified ex-Catholic, or ex-Buddhist, just non-practicing ones; because they don't seem to think that their lack of faith and practice excludes them from their religion. As an ex-Protestant, I used to ask how they could still say they were part of a religion they obviously didn't practice or believe in. Then I realized that my definition of "religion" was different to theirs, because my religion stated that you had to believe to be part of the faith.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#40

Post by mechnik »

Alex3917 wrote: post #10
runjake wrote: post #6

An imperfect one, like the rest of us. Edit: since I'm getting downvoted into oblivion, let me elaborate: no Buddhist is perfect, if they were perfect, they probably wouldn't see a need to study Buddha's teachings. It's not like Jobs was out criticizing how people lived their lives in "sin".

Steve was perfect as he was, he just needed some improvents.

Steve Jobs, imperfect.

His core, perfection itself.

Old pond, droid jumps in.

Post reply on HN