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What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

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Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#21

Post by davidw »

bfrs wrote: post #14

To me Zen seems like a lot of vague mumbo-jumbo. It can be interpreted any which way you want, making it sometimes seem wise and profound. The Buddhism I learned is quite simple and clear. It just boils down to two Golden Rules: 1. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated. 2. The Golden Mean: Everything in moderation, nothing in excess. and the related commentary as to why these are good policies to fo…

Another rule I think makes sense in the world is a sort of temporally shifted golden rule: try and leave things better than when you found them to do unto future people what you would wish them to do had they gone before you.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#22

Post by rd108 »

codex wrote: post #12
larve wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In retrospect, that biography is quite lacking on a lot of points. It seems like Isaacson was not able to get through to jobs in any other way than Jobs allowed. Maybe this is due to him rushing the book to be released 2 weeks after his death, there is almost no analysis of Jobs. I also wonder how Jobs, as buddhist as he was, would rationalize his anger. In the book he repeatedly says "that's how I am", which is pret…

There are limits to Buddhism. It can't change your sexual orientation; it can't make you immune to pain, and, apparently, it can't eliminate temper--especially if you're ancestors are from herder societies, which evolved temper to protect their vulnerable assets. Certain things are predominately innate.

I've worked with researchers studying how mindfulness can ameliorate chronic pain. Here are some references- the mind is a powerful thing.

http://dericbownds.net/uploaded_images/medpain.pdf http://www.neuro.cjb.net/content/31/14/5540.short

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#23

Post by codex »

codex wrote: post #12
larve wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In retrospect, that biography is quite lacking on a lot of points. It seems like Isaacson was not able to get through to jobs in any other way than Jobs allowed. Maybe this is due to him rushing the book to be released 2 weeks after his death, there is almost no analysis of Jobs. I also wonder how Jobs, as buddhist as he was, would rationalize his anger. In the book he repeatedly says "that's how I am", which is pret…

There are limits to Buddhism. It can't change your sexual orientation; it can't make you immune to pain, and, apparently, it can't eliminate temper--especially if you're ancestors are from herder societies, which evolved temper to protect their vulnerable assets. Certain things are predominately innate.

Thanks to all for the informative replies. The point I attempted to make is that while you can change the mind, you can't change it completely. Buddhists still feel pain, albeit less pain, and tempers can still flare. I suspect Steve would have been even more intolerable without Zen, and his comments reflect the limits he encountered attempting to change himself.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#24

Post by drzaiusapelord »

Arjuna wrote: post #13
gwern wrote: post #3

Not much of one. I read the bio too, and got a different picture - Jobs used Buddhism because he had such problems. We'll probably never know what problems specifically, just like we'll never know what his eating issues were (Isaacson says Jobs was urged to see a therapist about it, but refused) - narcissism as one woman speculated? Bi-polar? To me, the most insightful anecdote was: > 'Our consumer desires are unheal…

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#25

Post by msbarnett »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #24
Arjuna wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

Err, there isn't just "the thing" but a dedicated and directed marketing program to make you absolutely covet the product. Everything about capitalism, marketing, and advertising is about making us covet things so we buy them. Sorry, but there's no easy cop-out here. 99.9% of what Jobs did was marketing and its even more important than the product, imho.

What's your point?

Buddhism is not Christianity. It does not assert that it is the One True Path, and that it's teachings are the One Size Fits All solution to everybody's problems.

It does not follow that what Buddhism teaches is bad for Buddhists (attachment to objects) is therefore bad for everybody, and that if you market something that someone may allow themselves to form attachments to, you have therefore harmed them. If a Buddhist allows themselves to become attached to their iPod, then Buddhism offers them tools to deal with the suffering that might arise from that; there is no attached 'sin' committed by the marketing team at Apple.

Jobs didn't fail to meet any standard that Buddhism sets out for Buddhists (Buddhism sets very few such standards. You can be angry and discompassionate and attached to worldly things, and be Buddhist. The idea is that Buddhism helps you deal with the problems you have, not that Buddhism requires you to be a perfect being or kicks you to the curb).

You're simply inventing your own arbitrarily high standards based on fundamental misunderstandings of Buddhist concepts.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#26

Post by Alex3917 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #10
runjake wrote: post #6

An imperfect one, like the rest of us. Edit: since I'm getting downvoted into oblivion, let me elaborate: no Buddhist is perfect, if they were perfect, they probably wouldn't see a need to study Buddha's teachings. It's not like Jobs was out criticizing how people lived their lives in "sin".

Steve was perfect as he was, he just needed some improvents.

To those downvoting my comment, get off the Internet and go read the books the post is talking about, specifically Zen Mind, Beginners Mind. Then maybe you'll get what Steve actually believed.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#27

Post by codex »

omarchowdhury wrote: post #15
codex wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are limits to Buddhism. It can't change your sexual orientation; it can't make you immune to pain, and, apparently, it can't eliminate temper--especially if you're ancestors are from herder societies, which evolved temper to protect their vulnerable assets. Certain things are predominately innate.

How do you know what the limits to Buddhism are? Have you tested the limits? Letting go of conceptions was one of Buddha's teachings. "Certain things are predominately innate" is a conception and holding on to that limits progress [1]. [1] Progress in this case means deliverance (enlightenment).

There is no certainty, only degrees of belief. I don't "know" that the world is round--I haven't seen it from space and I haven't circumnavigated the globe, and I can't construct a proof. However, I'm "pretty damn sure" the world is round. If the human race restricted its belief to only those things it could be 100% sure of, we would still be in the Bronze Age.

Similarly, I can't know that Buddhism can't levitate you off the ground and make you immortal, but I'm "pretty damn sure" it can't, and I wouldn't get any flack for saying so.

There are many preconceptions I am comfortable letting go of, but not the ones I mentioned--at least not without extraordinary evidence.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#28

Post by Homunculiheaded »

Arjuna wrote: post #13
gwern wrote: post #3

Not much of one. I read the bio too, and got a different picture - Jobs used Buddhism because he had such problems. We'll probably never know what problems specifically, just like we'll never know what his eating issues were (Isaacson says Jobs was urged to see a therapist about it, but refused) - narcissism as one woman speculated? Bi-polar? To me, the most insightful anecdote was: > 'Our consumer desires are unheal…

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?" Buddhism expresses a distinction between a thing in and of itself and an individual's interpretation of a thing . "Computers and other products" are simply things in and of themselves. However, it is the individual that applies an interpretation to these things, such that the individual can allow these things t…

"Wasn't he defying that philosophy, she asked, by making computers and other products that people coveted?"

Just to add to this, buddhism actually has the idea of "right livelihood" which is one part of the noble 8-fold path. The 'wrong' livelihoods are enumerated: Business in weapons, human beings, meat, intoxicants and poison. essentially things that do physical harm to other life. Attachment is all around us, not just consumer goods. It is no particular "sin" for Jobs to make a livelihood selling things people want, overcoming our desire for consumer goods is just a small step in many life times process of liberation.

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#29

Post by codex »

michaelochurch wrote: post #17
larve wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In retrospect, that biography is quite lacking on a lot of points. It seems like Isaacson was not able to get through to jobs in any other way than Jobs allowed. Maybe this is due to him rushing the book to be released 2 weeks after his death, there is almost no analysis of Jobs. I also wonder how Jobs, as buddhist as he was, would rationalize his anger. In the book he repeatedly says "that's how I am", which is pret…

I can relate to this "Jobs wasn't a real Buddhist" nonsense because I practice Buddhist meditation and still can have a difficult personality. (I'm extremely intense and opinionated, to the point of being moralistic.) I was a lot worse when I had no spiritual path. The fact that I still have personal difficulties (as nearly everyone does, including most Buddhists) does not mean that my practice has been without value…

This is a bit off topic, but can you suggest accessible meditation resources for the beginner? Are books sufficient, or is a teacher necessary?

Re: What kind of buddhist was Steve Jobs, really?

#30

Post by radu_floricica »

bfrs wrote: post #14

To me Zen seems like a lot of vague mumbo-jumbo. It can be interpreted any which way you want, making it sometimes seem wise and profound. The Buddhism I learned is quite simple and clear. It just boils down to two Golden Rules: 1. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated. 2. The Golden Mean: Everything in moderation, nothing in excess. and the related commentary as to why these are good policies to fo…

This could be Dunning Kruger effect at work ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect ).

From what I know, there isn't much (any?) major debunking of zen from people who've studied it closely, the way it's easy to find on Christianity.

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