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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#681

Post by brigandish »

ricardobayes wrote: post #295
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That would be true if the circumstances are unchanged that lead the public to make that decision. It's ok to support 'Leave', there is no need to sugarcoat it.

Which 2 consecutive years do not contain political changes?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#682

Post by brigandish »

Semaphor wrote: post #265
brigandish wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because if I search for the polls that show it I only get results for this news! Sorry. There were a few polls that showed it at the time of both referendums, the BBC definitely covered it. If I find one in amongst the sea of bad search results I'll post it. It shouldn't be a surprise logically, as the cases can be seen as similar, but the media prefer the simple black and white cases so we're a rarely spoken of…

Your sibling found an article, thank you for bringing this to my attention :)

No problem, I was amazed at their Google-fu! :)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#683

Post by brigandish »

noxvilleza wrote: post #130
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

Obviously the status quo within the UK has changed a lot since the 2014 Scottish independence vote - the key aspect being Brexit. This change was sort of crucial to many of the key talking points in the vote: EU CAP subsidies for farmers, sole EU membership (now from a different prior state), border controls, etc. The prior vote was relatively close (55/45) so it's reasonable to expect that 200k people might've flipp…

I honestly don't remember much of the debate being on the EU, though that could be my memory or just my experience of it. It's clearly important, I simply don't agree that it obviates the pledge. UKIP were around, and as I pointed out in another comment (and confirmed by a sibling's helpfully finding the polling info) there were (are) plenty of independence supporters who also wanted out of the EU. If we take the low percentage from those polls of 25% then that eats that 45% by around 500k.

I'm not saying that's how it would be this time but it doesn't make for a strong case.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#684

Post by brigandish »

ncmncm wrote: post #679
brigandish wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I get to vote then it is my business, else I wouldn't or shouldn't get a vote.

It's none of your business why they want to call a referendum, or why anybody would vote as they would, or how they would vote, individually. There may be as many reasons as votes. You will of course vote on it as you please, or not vote, and it's also nobody else's business whether or how you voted, or why. You are free to announce how you will vote, and why. And you can change your mind afterward, and vote the oppo…

> It's none of your business why they want to call a referendum

The intentions of politicians are not my business and that is "absolutely elementary civics". That isn't credible.

As to the rest, obvious and irrelevant. When did I make any comment on someone else's right or reasons to vote? I didn't, thank for noticing enough that you refrain from attempting to use it to obscure the issue at hand - your claim about what is my business or not.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#685

Post by scott_w »

brigandish wrote: post #668
scott_w wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s a spectrum. A minor change of policy? Not a solid basis to reevaluate a constitutional referendum. Completely rewriting huge chunks of your country’s constitution and international relationships? Probably grounds to rethink your own constitution.

Were the SNP leaders unaware that many things can change over a 30 year period when they made the pledge? Were the SNP leaders unaware that there was a strong movement to leave the EU within the UK as a whole and also within their own movement ? The answer to both is yes, so what's the excuse?

Given Farage was also preparing the ground to re-run the Brexit referendum when he thought he was going to lose it, I would think the answer is obvious.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#686

Post by scott_w »

dankboys wrote: post #540
scott_w wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

The...legal policy?

The policy so legal, everyone is now pulled from the flight and it was cancelled after a challenge to the ECHR.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#687

Post by brigandish »

scott_w wrote: post #685
brigandish wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were the SNP leaders unaware that many things can change over a 30 year period when they made the pledge? Were the SNP leaders unaware that there was a strong movement to leave the EU within the UK as a whole and also within their own movement ? The answer to both is yes, so what's the excuse?

Given Farage was also preparing the ground to re-run the Brexit referendum when he thought he was going to lose it, I would think the answer is obvious.

How is that relevant? I also wonder how two wrongs make a right, perhaps you could illuminate me on that.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#688

Post by mantas »

scott_w wrote: post #655
mantas wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if some people try to challenge it and enable refugee shopping, calling it „incorrect“ shows that you don't know much about this topic.

It’s easy to prove me wrong: point me to the relevant lines in the relevant treaties or conventions that state this. You can’t because they don’t exist. There is no obligation to seek asylum in the “first safe country.” This is a common trope trotted out by right-wing mouthpieces which is where I’m assuming you got the rest of your “facts.”

If you cross border illegally and don't ask for asylum, then you're, well, illegally crossing the border.

For EU, there's Dublin agreement.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#689

Post by physicsguy »

randomsearch wrote: post #661
physicsguy wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I said though, is it? Not much point attacking a straw man argument. If Scotland voted to leave the UK, it'd almost certainly need to go through the normal accession process. That's unlikely to happen until Scotland had formally left. Even if the EU agreed to start negotiating immediately after the vote, it's still questionable whether it'd be complete by the time that it left the UK. I don't disagree…

My point being, that scaremongering about Scotland not being fast tracked backed into the EU is very similar to the false arguments used at the referendum. This is a country that has already been in the EU, was dragged out against its wishes, and now wants to rejoin. It will not be a normal accession process. Ignoring that fact, the EU has a huge political incentive to ease Scotland’s re entry wrt the English situati…

To join the Euro, Scotland would need to go through a process whereby it pinned it’s currency to the Euro and kept it stable for a period of time. To do that, it would need control of the currency and a central bank. That all takes time. The UK famously failed to keep the Pound in the ERM because of currency speculators, with much greater financial resources than a post-independence Scotland would have available.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#690

Post by physicsguy »

mAritz wrote: post #631
physicsguy wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities; How could it be judged that institutions are stable immediately after independence? There'd be a ton of new ones that would need to be set up.

They've had those things as the country of Scotland under the UK, so I'd assume you could argue that they qualify with that.

How? There is a well established separate court system in Scotland so I think that part would be fine. But pretty much every other part of government would have to be built from scratch. A foreign office, a home office, immigration, passport office, etc. etc. etc.

Most of these are institutions are based physically in rUK so it’s not like they can be “split”

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