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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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421–430 of 553 posts

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#421
post #345

I think this article hits on some truths and gets a handful of things wrong. First, they are correct that we are in a dynamic profession that requires constant learning and expanding. No doubt the people who choose to stay in software are likely to be people who are curious, life-long learners where this is a benefit of the profession rather than a drawback. That said, one thing I noticed from teaching computer scien…

It's interesting because at least in terms of working professionals, of the most productive professions I've worked with, the ones who focus on "meta-level" concepts are usually the ones who overthink every detail and get very little work done and ultimately they are the ones who burn out. They tend to bike-shed details, take way too long to try to create sophisticated abstractions that never quite achieve the silver…

I think no one was writing about ones who master specific language.

There is a lot of people who learn just a surface without going deep into tool and think they know enough.

For me it seems that someone who would really go deep into learning language would get most of theoretical stuff on the way. Because there is no way to really master C++ or really master Java without learning about data structures and all kinds of "meta-level" concepts.

Maybe the difference is mostly approach to learning more practical/more theoretical.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is both IMO.

SWE salaries are anomalously high whereas they would need to be anomalously low to fit in to the parent up-thread's comment.

Not outside of a small number of US tech cities and certainly not outside the US. My first coding job paid about $30k for example.

I am currently a senior engineer earning less than a SV graduate. My pay has been largely comparable to a plumber for my whole career. Not for lack of trying.

I suspect if whatever red tape os preventing US companies from remote hires world wide happening en masse, then non-MAGMA employees will see deflation in their wages.

Similarly if more people are let in on unrestricted working visas that last a while.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#423
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t even push to a git repo unless it has a linked work item/story/task/bug. So, in order to say, upgrade packages or refactor difficult to read code, the work item needs to be approved by a non-tech PO. Guess how much gets done outside of planned/micromanaged? Answer: next to nothing.

That definitely sounds broken. I have a hard rule with my PO: 30% of the sprint is mine (read: the team's). He only gets to schedule 70% of the stories according to his priorities. I use that 30% for tech debt, primarily, but sometimes for spike projects and other things that interest us.

Yeah - team members are also stakeholders and improving dev experience by allowing refactoring is something that needs to be taken into account.

Unless company does not want to have any devs working on that project in the future. But it would be just like not wanting customers to use that project.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse, industry is routinely bashing on CS degrees because they don't turn people into framework X-ready candidates. It's getting a little tiring just how little credit is given to the idea of "maybe these tools can be learned in a reasonable amount of time by people with a degree showing they can pick things up rather quickly".

> industry is routinely bashing on CS degrees because they don't turn people into framework X-ready candidates. To me that's noise and not much else. Something I don't think a lot of folks realize is that there's two parallel industries (and pipelines to jobs in the industry). They almost never overlap. One in which recruiting is largely done by non-technical folks who match keywords of frameworks, and where rote and…

I work at a non-Google FAANG - from what I've seen in my org, "CS fundamentals" (which I assume is some proxy statement of sorts for leetcode-style interviews with emphasis on data structure/algo questions & knowledge) isn't as important for the work or to get hired for us. Our view is hard technical skills can be taught/picked up on the jobs, but behavioral aspects are not so easy to develop.

We routinely have & hire interns from top programs and many lesser known ones, or even non-CS degree holders.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#425
post #73

Some really good points on the ultra-fast depreciation of SE tech skills. A relative of mine is a mechanical engineer, well past retirement age and still going strong in his 2-man consulting shop because that's what he loves doing. He works with precision manufacturers, automotive suppliers,... all very cutting-edge stuff, helping them develop new product lines, manufacturing processes,... He says the core skills tha…

I think the skill depreciation concept is a bit exaggerated. Especially in the context of the newness of computers relative to the engineering field in general, the latter which has been around, arguably, for thousands of years. For example, SQL & Unix have been around since the 1970s. Linux since late 1991. Javascript: The end of 1995. NodeJS: 2009. Sure, there's a ton of churn in the JS Ecosystem, but all it takes…

From the perspective of whoever is experiencing it, it doesn't really matter how it fits into the historical picture. What you experience is sitting in front of your screen while your family is having dinner, not points on a multi-decade timeline.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#426
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse, industry is routinely bashing on CS degrees because they don't turn people into framework X-ready candidates. It's getting a little tiring just how little credit is given to the idea of "maybe these tools can be learned in a reasonable amount of time by people with a degree showing they can pick things up rather quickly".

TBH CS degrees don't really produce people who can code in general either. As far as I can tell they take people who already understand the basics and teach them to formally communicate.

They typically also require 1000-2000 hours (over the course of the entire degree) of instruction time in things relating to software development. Part of that is homework and the practice of the craft of software development.

One of the key things that self taught developers miss is the instruction and review of the code. You write code differently if you're going to be graded or if its a throw away script.

In theory, job code that is going to last for more than a run should be written closer to the rigor of the graded code while people who have self taught have never had their code reviewed in their instructional period and tend to (not always, but tend to) write code that wouldn't stand up as well to review.

There are plenty of graduates who don't write code that stands up to review either... but there is a "you have spent a few hundred hours writing code and had it graded, and changed how you write code to get a better grade."

For a person who comes into a CS degree program without experience at coding, and they do their homework, I tend to believe that they will have code that stands up better to review and fewer bad habits than someone who followed a self taught progression.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#427
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but I interview for a role where we dont have set languages: we're a small optimisation team working across system when they reach capacity bottleneck and we do JS, C#, Java, C++, PL/SQL fixes completely transparently, we've slowly learned that languages really dont matter all that much for performance tuning as much as programmers mishandling which are identical in all of them (hash map loops, abusive recursion,…

Anything can be learned, but not necessarily in a reasonable amount of time. Some things are easier to pick up, some are just impossible. Example, I was doing PHP for 11 years then jumped to Go 9 years ago (wow it has already been 9 years), Go was good for me because it lifted a lot of mental burden of the OOP craze and wrong concepts applied back then. On the downside, it didn't have an ecosystem. But it was easy to…

See I feel you have missed a lot of points, it’s like you’re pragmatic as hell are creating stuff but by the choices you seem to have made it seems like you have got quite a surface level understanding of some very well thought out stuff that has good reasoning behind it because you want to make stuff with ease regardless of how maintainable it is it how much tooling can help you. I wouldn’t chalk stuff entirely up to hype.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#428
post #140
post #73

Some really good points on the ultra-fast depreciation of SE tech skills. A relative of mine is a mechanical engineer, well past retirement age and still going strong in his 2-man consulting shop because that's what he loves doing. He works with precision manufacturers, automotive suppliers,... all very cutting-edge stuff, helping them develop new product lines, manufacturing processes,... He says the core skills tha…

>I was actually surprised because I heard so much about crazy new materials like carbon fibers, graphene, technologies like 3D-printing,... but apparently what makes a machine break are still the same things: mechanical stress, heat dissipation, friction,... new materials and processes might change the coefficients, but not the (mostly Newtonian) physics (my interpretation btw, not his words). I don't really see the…

You really think that a SE in their 70's who learnt how to write if statements and data structures 50 years ago would say that they're still basically doing the same thing now as back then? Maybe if they work on legacy stacks like the famed COBOL devs coming back out of retirement. But the thing is that what he's working on is cutting edge, not maintaining systems that were built decades ago.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#429
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people see that some other group of people, with identity traits different from themselves, are doing better than themselves on some metric, it often induces resentment. That's just a fact. Whether its justified or not, varies with circumstances and what ethical system people have. When black people in the 50's felt that way about white people and their privileges, most people today would see those concerns as j…

> When German people in 1922 became angry because most jews had enough money for food, while many Germans went hungry Even if this were true, and it isn’t, people didn’t start believing in anti-Jewish propaganda because the Jews had more to eat than the average German. People always believed in crazy anti-Jewish propaganda since, at least, the first crusade.

> People always believed in crazy anti-Jewish propaganda since, at least, the first crusade.

Absolutely they did. However, even at that time, it seems (if wikipedia is to be trusted) that the Jew's roles as bankers was part of the reason for the massacres:

"Many crusaders had to go into debt in order to purchase weaponry and equipment for the expedition; as Western Catholicism strictly forbade usury, many crusaders inevitably found themselves indebted to Jewish moneylenders. Having armed themselves by assuming the debt, the crusaders rationalized the killing of Jews as an extension of their Catholic mission"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

You are absolutely right that antisemmitism didn't suddenly pop up in 1922, or even with the creation of the "Protocols" conspiracy. But prior to 1922, antisemitism probably wasn't worse in Germany than most other western countries.

But as we consider the inflation we are seeing today, try to imagine how it would be if the inflation is not 5-10% but 29500%, as it was at the peak in 1923. In other words, it would take 3.7 days for your paycheck to go to half value. When you got your salary, you had to run to the bakery and buy as much bread as you could. Old poeple and people on a fixed salary would lose everything in an instant.

Even in the present age, especially after 2008, conspiracy theories involving the banking sector is everywhere, and there are still whispers implicating a Jewish conspiracy, if you listen. Now imagine standing at a corner in Munich on a day where the factory didn't need your work, too afraid to go home to your abusive wife who would beat and scorn you for not bringing food to the hungry family.

Imagine some small man with a mustache telling a very convincing story that comletely rationalizes your troubles. He reminds you about the Goldmann banker up the street, and the Ruben gem store at the corner. Their families are not hungry, yet they didnt "work" (meaning physically) a single day of their lives, they are simply collecting usury. Imagine being told this, while hungry, while worried about being beaten by your wife when you come home, in a world where anti-semmitism is still seen as acceptable, in a world where usury is still seen as a sin, in a country where the interest rates on loans have 5 digits.

What I'm saying is that those germans were just like us, just under different circumstances. To them, the jews were the socially accepted "bad guys", just as nazis and facists, and where people can label people as nazi or facist with not much more evidence than not liking that person.

The person that would say today, that "It's ok to punch a nazi." (meaning MAGA-republican), might very will be the person in 1923 thinking that "It's ok to punch a jew.". The reasoning is very similar. And it's not restricted to the left. People on the right are currently generating massive amounts of resentment against "the elites". And in some cases, the anti-semmitism is once again coming out into the open.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#430
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but I interview for a role where we dont have set languages: we're a small optimisation team working across system when they reach capacity bottleneck and we do JS, C#, Java, C++, PL/SQL fixes completely transparently, we've slowly learned that languages really dont matter all that much for performance tuning as much as programmers mishandling which are identical in all of them (hash map loops, abusive recursion,…

> please stop frigging saying it's the garbage collector and look at your crap for real lol Because if the garbage collector is the bottleneck you need to fix your code to not produce so much garbage.

The first issue I tackled at one of the jobs I had was slow JSP page performance.

The code had some sizable chunks of JavaScript in Strings and looked at each authorization the user had. Its been awhile, but in dynamically generating that JavaScript (ICK!) it generated several megabytes of garbage Strings by doing `script = script + "little bit more";` way too many times. This was done for each page load. 8am and hundreds of people click the page to get their start of day stuff... and... server has problems.

That particular issue was fixed by changing it all to a StringBuilder.

I've yet to see any sloppy garbage creating that is on the same order of magnitude as that JSP was.

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