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We will never have enough software developers (2020)

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Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many lawyers have to religiously time track everything. Because hours attributable to a specific client are billed and billable hours are where the revenue comes from.

On the other hand, lawyers knowledge of the law and legal procedures doesn't become stale after a few years. "Requires 20 years experience in the Affordable Care Act" - Said no law firm ever

On the other hand, tax codes and laws change all the time. If the law changes, and you don't know it as a professional in that area, the outcome isn't good.

Every field has to deal with change. In law, you've got politicians changing the rules, in the corporate area, you've got Office Politicians changing the rules.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#72
post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

You could work two easy software engineering jobs from home in parallel and double your income though.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#73
Some really good points on the ultra-fast depreciation of SE tech skills. A relative of mine is a mechanical engineer, well past retirement age and still going strong in his 2-man consulting shop because that's what he loves doing. He works with precision manufacturers, automotive suppliers,... all very cutting-edge stuff, helping them develop new product lines, manufacturing processes,... He says the core skills that he's using are still those that he learnt in university several decades ago.

I was actually surprised because I heard so much about crazy new materials like carbon fibers, graphene, technologies like 3D-printing,... but apparently what makes a machine break are still the same things: mechanical stress, heat dissipation, friction,... new materials and processes might change the coefficients, but not the (mostly Newtonian) physics (my interpretation btw, not his words).

One could say the same thing about software engineering - true fundamental advances in algorithms and data structures are sufficiently rare that it wouldn't be a nuisance to keep up with them. But the %-age of how important those basics are relative to the extremely fast-changing landscape of tools and frameworks is much smaller (plus, one could argue that even the fundamentals see a lot of shifting ground in CS, with neural architectures, differentiable programming, not to mention quantum computing).

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#74
a more accurate state:

We Will Never Have Enough Teachers

Backend Devs have to teach themselves as the techniques and languages and tools dramatically change over time.

Front end Devs have it twice as hard as we have to teach ourselves while at the same time use design to teach the app end user.

We are in one of the professions where teaching is the core of the profession.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#75

With OpenAi (and other comparable technologies) able to semantically understand "write fast and efficient C code for a prime sieve" and generate fairly impressive C code, I'm no longer sure I agree that we will never have enough software developers (after watching this, made me get just a little nervous as well as excited about the future of our industry): https://youtu.be/k_EF42H2ZC0?t=187

My first initial reaction was: did the computer write that code, or is it cribbing code from Stack Overflow? While the latter is problematic for developers who do the same, it is not a problem for developers who have to write original code or where the code has to be verifiable. If it is problematic, it would also say a lot about what the industry has evolved into and would probably be why so many people are leaving it (even if AI could not take over, less experienced and less expensive developers could).

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s housing that’s the anomaly there though, not SWE salaries.

It is both IMO.

SWE salaries are anomalously high whereas they would need to be anomalously low to fit in to the parent up-thread's comment.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#77
post #15

Re: skill churn I got the impression that there is much less of this in lower level languages. It seems like there is a fairly stable foundation of C, Cpp that everything else is built on top of. I wonder if embedded programmers have this problem.

> I got the impression that there is much less of this in lower level languages.

Not only the lower level languages, but fundamental skills in general, I think. Undertanding the computer from the hardware level, OS level as well network protocols, filesystems etc tend to continue to provide benefits even if one fashionable technology is replaced by another.

Similarly, fully undertanding algorithms, data structures, design patterns and architectural patterns also generalize, provided you DO understand these concepts with their strengths, weaknesses, and when to use them and not use them.

If you have the skills above (+ some math and general troubleshooting ability), you are able to approach most software/compute problems from first principles. If so, you may find that you are able to take up senior roles even involving technology you have not used before, as long as the tech introduces few new fundamental ideas. (And if there are new fundamental ideas, you need to learn those to keep up, but such ideas arrive much more rarely than new tech).

People who do not learn these things from first principles, but instead are memorizing patterns they learn from other people, have to do a lot of new memorization when new tech becomes fashionable.

Not only does that take a lot of effort, it also makes it unlikely that they will be able to identify antipatterns by themselves, and it may cause them to end up trying to use the new and fashionable tech in ways it is not suitable for.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#78
post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

Oh yeah, every dev in the world makes $100 000 minimum per year, sure. And it's boring and easy with reasonable deadlines and appropriate vacations and time off work.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#79
post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

Yeah indeed. Coming from someone who had to work with physical labor before I started programming, software developers don't know how good they have it.

"The pay isn't great", "treated far too shabbily", "dealing with bugs and bad decisions", "inadequate processes" and so on, sucks when development is the only thing you've dealt with, but you have no idea how it is to actually have a blue collar job if you're actually complaining about those things.

I think cs137 and others like them should try to have a part-time job at McDonalds (or whatever that is not in front of a screen), because it will make you love your software engineering job again.

Re: We will never have enough software developers (2020)

#80
post #10

There isn't a shortage of software developers. The pay isn't great--the kids getting $300K packages out of Stanford are an exception; it's a marketing expense. In fact, if you control for the level of intelligence it takes to be any good, SWEs make less (and get far less autonomy--do you think lawyers work on Jira tickets?) than any other professional, and they hit a salary/challenge plateau quick... after which, the…

Cry me a river. Software development is some of the easiest, highest paid work in history. The majority of the population is grinding away in tough physical labor or abusive service jobs getting paid pennies while software devs moan about only making low six figures and getting a few boring jira tickets while they sit in their home office reading hacker news for half the day.

This seems to be a perspective that's exclusively silicon valley (perhaps large parts of the US) based. Not at all true in Europe at the least. Not that it's a bad job by any stretch of the imagination, but even low six figures is really rare in the EU for Software Development.

Easiest is also highly subjective, if your job is making wordpress templates/sites then sure. If you're working on complexer systems then this statement is horseshit. I've done physical and service jobs that were both easier than the software development I do, only difference was that the physical job was also physically exhausting.

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