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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#631

Post by mAritz »

physicsguy wrote: post #586
Erikun wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isnt correct, perhaps "poor" might be a problem depending on what dept Scotland would have after independence, but definetly not small. Joining criteria are ( https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-p... ): * stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities; * a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with compet…

> stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities; How could it be judged that institutions are stable immediately after independence? There'd be a ton of new ones that would need to be set up.

They've had those things as the country of Scotland under the UK, so I'd assume you could argue that they qualify with that.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#632

Post by VBprogrammer »

Zenst wrote: post #628
VBprogrammer wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel also had a similar arrangement which collapsed after it was found to break Israeli law. Apparently some journalists tried to track down the refugees involved in that scheme some years later and found barely a handful had remained in the country. My suspicion is this is just a short term attempt to boost the PMs popularity among the segment of his support base who think mistreatment of refugees and immigrants i…

It's just sweeping a problem under a carpet approach. Real solution is alas one that eludes us today. The real issue is the blur in lines between economic migrant and refugee, with one used to bismish the other and anything to address the former being classed as an attack upon the later. Hence the whole subject is just a can or worms that just does not get dealt with. As for the UK, when the majority of the economic…

> As for the UK, when the majority of the economic and refugee's arrive via safe countries like France then it kinda adds a whole layer of debate that you just don't get with other countries migrant/refugee problems.

I think a country which in the last 3 years had a melt down because they couldn't buy toilet paper; Crashed the supply chains for petrol and diesel by sheer panic; and thought it was a national crisis when KFC ran out of chicken should perhaps wind it's fucking neck in.

It is only natural that people fleeing persecution or not attempt to find a place which gives them the greatest opportunity to have a decent life. There are many contributing factors here everything from prior knowledge of English, family connections and reunification laws.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#633

Post by smcl »

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #617
smcl wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's contradicting the original point you were making about Scotland pulling the UK left isn't it? It sounds like you're saying "Scotland matters ... sometimes. Look, 20% of you helped elect Theresa May!" That's not what we were talking about, which is that Scotland consistently votes to the left. And there is no way we can get a left-wing government, because England votes to the right. And it kind of doesn't m…

I am going to keep my comments to a minimum because I think this is becoming an unproductive exchange. > But that's contradicting the original point You have said there's a contradiction, but have not said what it is. I have no idea what you think it is. > Scotland consistently votes to the left. And there is no way we can get a left-wing government, because England votes to the right. It is obviously possible for th…

> You have said there's a contradiction, but have not said what it is. I have no idea what you think it is.

So you said Scotland moves the UK left. We said Scotland can't move the UK left, England is too Tory and too big. You said, but wait Scotland giving 13/59 seats to the Tories seats helped deliver Theresa May to victory. Wat.

> It is obviously possible for the UK to elect a left-wing government. I don't know why you think otherwise.

Again, that is entirely up to England and their best hope is Labour who don't seem particularly interested in either winning or shifting left. Hence our frustration.

> My point is that there is no reason to expect a bloc of 59 constituencies to consistently decide the outcome of general elections ... You need further, independent arguments to show why it is a problem for Scotland.

It would be weird if we "consistently decided" the outcome of elections, but I didn't say that. And please don't make me list all the reasons why Scotland isn't simply 59 constituencies, or even a region like Yorkshire. Absolutely no shade towards Yorkshire, it is a lovely place but I think we both know the difference.

I honestly think you might just be getting a kick out of winding up a Scot. If you were then, well I hope you had fun :) If not then I'm sorry I'm really not trying to be a dick. This might be something that's more based on what you identify your nationality as. If you consider yourself as "British" first, and "English" second (or, as is common British which equals English) then what I am saying will obviously not resonate at all. For me my nationality is "Scottish" - "British" is just an entry in my passport, it's not a thing I feel I particularly identify with. I get the impression you're a leftie overall, so whatever happens re indyref2 I think we're on the same side.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#634

Post by smcl »

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #604
smcl wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scotland is assuming the EU would want them The EU is currently negotiating with Albania, North Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro to join[0]. Is there something these countries have which an independent Scotland wouldn't? > with the SNP in power in Scotland, it makes it hard for the UK to have any other government but the tories. All of Scotland's population could have voted for Labour in the last three elections an…

Yes but as another commentator has mentioned other countries such as Spain would likely veto them joining hence the EU not allowing them.

Ah then I have great news for you, Spain has already said they would not veto Scotland's EU bid if they voted for independence in a legally binding referendum:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-spain-politics-scotland-i...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#635

Post by mvc »

ggm wrote: post #96
Blackstone4 wrote: post #26

I feel like the Scotts only push hard for independence when the price of oil is high....because it balances the budget and makes independence look more attractive..

Not enough of the reserves lie in Scottish waters. If you look at the sea area mapping the line runs a lot more north by Northeast than people expect. Scotland will make shitloads exporting hydro electricity. Probably more than oil and gas royalties

> Scotland will make shitloads exporting hydro electricity

I doubt that. Hydro doesn't seem very exportable.

hydro-tech should be though and Scotland could be well placed to attract investment in that (if only we weren't losing so many scientists to the EU)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#636

Post by [deleted] »

nazka wrote: post #623
smcl wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain I understand. But I dunno about France. It's not the Auld Alliance is still a thing, but surely they'd relish an opportunity to give England a black eye.

Being French I can tell you we really discourage it because we don’t have just one region but several! You have Corsica who wants to be independent, Alsace who wants to be independent or linked to Germany and sometimes Basque linked with the Basque region of Spain. But all that was at its apex years ago now it’s more stable.

[deleted]

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#637

Post by triceratops »

rayiner wrote: post #488
triceratops wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty who think India has drifted to the far-right in the past decade.

What’s happening in India is merely the westernized elite losing their grip on culture: https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-culture-wars-of-post-colonial... . But the desire of Indians to have their country without other people in it goes back to independence from Britain. Calling it “nativism” would be inappropriate because that would make it seem like a thing that needs a label. To the contrary, that’s just how most soc…

> What’s happening in India is merely the westernized elite losing their grip on culture

It can be both simultaneously.

> the desire of Indians to have their country without other people in it

It's a bit more than that though. I don't think you know enough, sorry.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#638

Post by rayiner »

triceratops wrote: post #637
rayiner wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s happening in India is merely the westernized elite losing their grip on culture: https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-culture-wars-of-post-colonial... . But the desire of Indians to have their country without other people in it goes back to independence from Britain. Calling it “nativism” would be inappropriate because that would make it seem like a thing that needs a label. To the contrary, that’s just how most soc…

> What’s happening in India is merely the westernized elite losing their grip on culture It can be both simultaneously. > the desire of Indians to have their country without other people in it It's a bit more than that though. I don't think you know enough, sorry.

Feel free to educate me. I’m from neighboring Bangladesh, and the situation with pluralism in India seems like the situation with secularism in Bangladesh. Western educated elites trying to impose it on a larger population that doesn’t want it. Or at least has a vastly narrower conception of it than the elites do.

At the end of the day, Bangladesh exists because Bangladeshis wanted a country for Bangali Muslims. Most Bangladeshis subscribe to that core premise. So it’s bizarre to me when people attack Britons upset about immigration from Bangladesh using accusations of “racism.” The Brexiter and the average Bangladeshi are ideologically on the same ground. Their differences arise due to conflicting interests, not conflicting ideologies.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#639

Post by maratc »

mvc wrote: post #627
maratc wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Scots want to leave a declining Empire A and to join a rising Empire B, I don't have issue with that. What I have issue with is calling that "independence", because that's not what that word usually means.

You ignored this part of parent's response. "The EU would have less of an influence than Westminster does" For example. Did the UK require permission from the EU in order to hold the Brexit referendum?

Is your argument that there would be less dependence on Brussels than there is on Westminster? Because my argument is that “less dependence” is not what independence is.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#640

Post by pojzon »

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #539
pojzon wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ? Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement. When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around. Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen.

> Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ? Hungary and Poland were the only countries opposing the unlimited migration. Hungary is the only country that pushes back on sanctions that harms us in Germany more than them in Russia. Austria and Netherlands were opposing a huge debt package to fight corona. > Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement. Ma…

Current goverment policy is to make everyone, beside selected few, poor. So that everyone will be dependent on social programs.

Its terrifying how their every law was to destroy middle and upper middle class.

Its terrifying how polarized and tyrranical their actions towards media and oposition are.

Being totally against immigration is just xenophoby and/or bigotry.

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