Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#511

Post by mvc » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:17 PM UTC

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #467

randomsearch wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scotland's implied deficit in 2020-21 was £36.3bn, or 22.4% of GDP. [1] How has the price of oil changed since then? Cherry picking much?

Scotland's deficit is persistent. Between 2014-15 and 2019-20 it averaged 9.2%, compared to 3.2% for the UK as a whole. [1] Infamously, the SNP's envisioned post-independence budget was based on their forecast for annual oil and gas revenues: £10bn. In reality they have averaged an order of magnitude less: £1bn. Oil and gas are volatile commodities so there will be year-to-year fluctuations but the secular trend is c…

> the secular trend is clearly downwards

Some might see this as an argument for ditching the folks who've overseen this downward trend.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#512

Post by petesergeant » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:18 PM UTC

mvc wrote: post #507

petesergeant wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current situation is that the UK, not Scotland, owns the oil fields. A maritime boundary would need to be drawn and negotiated. If Westminster really wanted to stick the boot in, they could offer Shetland a vote on becoming a Crown Dependency first.

The fact that Westminster can if it chooses to "stick the boot in", together with the possibility that it might, is evidence enough IMO to support independence. The trust has gone. I want us ruling our own affairs.

Would you support Shetland independence, even if it meant Scotland losing most of its oil revenue?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#513

Post by inglor_cz » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

dubeye wrote: post #429

ciphol wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HS2 will give poorer regions access to London and vice versa. Sounds like a good thing for the poorer regions

It will encourage residents of poorer regions to travel to London, thus would likely disincentive economic investment in poorer regions. It would be better for the poorer regions to invest the HS2 money in local infrastructure and services.

In the Czech Republic, the most disadvantaged regions tend to be those where connections to Prague / Brno suck. It is not a 100 per cent correlation, but pretty strong. People leave them regardless and tend to come back less.

Maybe Scotland is different, but around me, I haven't seen any region that was depopulated by having good rail infrastructure.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#514

Post by aembleton » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

carnitine wrote: post #468

aembleton wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't they already moved to Dublin?

No, not even remotely. London is second only to New York for finance.

So, why would they move to Scotland? If it becomes appealing for the financial sector to move to Scotland if they are inside the EU, then why not move now to Ireland which is already in the EU.

Any businesses that needed to move to the EU will have already done so.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#515

Post by afavour » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:20 PM UTC

martindevans wrote: post #103

ivolimmen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. My view on the EU is that it is far from perfect but the fact that we collaborate on a larger scale is necessary and we should only try to enhance it. At some point (500+ years?) we should be one planet, that should the goal. (Sorry; I am out-of-this-world-super-left).

One huge government ruling the entire world sounds out-of-this-world-super dystopian to me!

The fact that you derive “one huge government” from “one planet” probably speaks more to your biases than anything else.

There are plenty of models that would allow for a small level of administration globally and local governmental control that is still considerably better than what we have today.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#516

Post by walkhour » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:21 PM UTC

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #100

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them. If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Selec…

These kinds of votes would happen more often if the independent country committed to running referendums asking whether they should join the original country after they became independent.

Many countries fear a referendum every twenty years with a 30% chance of resulting in independence, with these conditions, it's just a matter of time until the region becomes independent, and referendums, of course, stop happening.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#517

Post by NoGravitas » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:22 PM UTC

nextstep wrote: post #309

carnitine wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

This is the funniest comment in this whole thread. Many of the ideas of UKIP and the others have been adopted by the Tories! And the main opposition party (Labour) has been taken over by centre-right neoliberals. The left had a tiny bit of power pre-Brexit. Now it has none.

Yep, Labor has had neoliberal leadership since the 90s, but they finally thoroughly purged their left a couple of years ago.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#518

Post by camjw » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:23 PM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #504

camjw wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it take to convince you that this policy is not illegal? (For clarity, I agree with you that it is an awful policy.)

Very simply the Supreme Court would have to rule that the policy was legal and detail how it was in line with UN conventions on refugees. The English courts haven’t done this yet, they just said they won’t issue injunctions to prevent certain deportations.

Do you expect the Supreme Court to rule on all government policy? Is it the case that you feel government policy is illegal until ruled legal by the SC? Sort of guilty until proven innocent? If the SC decides not to rule, say it just dismisses the case (not sure what the mechanisms are here) would the policy be perpetually illegal or would that be taken as tacit legality of the policy?

This does seem logically consistent to me, just trying to understand your position better.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#519

Post by Tycho » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:23 PM UTC

The nation voted No in 2014 so they should probably leave it a bit before angling for another referendum. 20 years perhaps.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#520

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:24 PM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #504

camjw wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it take to convince you that this policy is not illegal? (For clarity, I agree with you that it is an awful policy.)

Very simply the Supreme Court would have to rule that the policy was legal and detail how it was in line with UN conventions on refugees. The English courts haven’t done this yet, they just said they won’t issue injunctions to prevent certain deportations.

[deleted]