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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#301

Post by Veen »

scott_w wrote: post #185
carnitine wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who exactly in the cabinet is far right? Truss, Sunak, Javid, Raab and the rest hardly come across as the right wing mob. Rees-Mogg is the only one who maybe comes remotely close and he’s got one of the most minor positions.

Truss is moving to break a treaty to appease the far right nutters in her party. Javid, as Home Secretary, stripped a teenager of her British citizenship, leaving her stateless and stranded somewhere in Iraq or Syria.

The teenager is a terrorist sympathiser who left the UK to join Isis. And she isn’t a teenager any more.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#302

Post by jfk13 »

synu wrote: post #84
brigandish wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do you think independence referenda should be held?

When it’s a close vote and circumstances are changing rapidly, I’d say pretty often. Maybe every two or three years until some kind of consensus emerges? It seems like an important topic you wouldn’t want to suppress except for once every sixty years or whatever, and might force some negotiation to get to a better place whether through independence or reconciliation. This is assuming the role of the government here i…

> When it’s a close vote and circumstances are changing rapidly, I’d say pretty often

And if you hold the vote every 2-3 years, and the result alternates between Yes and No, at what point will you say "stop, this is a final decision"?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#303

Post by kmlx »

dubeye wrote: post #233
kmlx wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. i don't get this. to me, in 2022, all the countries of the UK are exactly the same. even Ireland in some aspects. same language, same history, more or less same laws. what's so special about Scotland, and what's their "different path" as compared to, let's say, Wales?

Is greater London exactly the same as Cornwall? Scotland has sufficient tax base and legal structures to go it alone, whilst Wales arguably doesn't. In your list, you exclude politics.

> Is greater London exactly the same as Cornwall?

considering how many people from London move to Cornwall, and judging by the number of Teslas on the road, yeah, it's pretty similar.

> Scotland has sufficient tax base and legal structures to go it alone, whilst Wales arguably doesn't.

there are lots of countries that went at it alone. that doesn't mean those countries have been successful. one can even argue that an ever closer European Union made lots of small countries be more successful by giving up part of their power.

also, there's no such thing as "alone" in this day and age.

> In your list, you exclude politics.

less politics, better for everyone.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#304

Post by rayiner »

scott_w wrote: post #156
dankboys wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing says "British far right" like a Cabinet full of ethnic minorities.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

Her views on immigration are indistinguishable from those of most people in India or Bangladesh. They’d do the same thing if the shoe were on the other foot. And those are definitely not “far right” countries.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#305

Post by swarnie »

dubeye wrote: post #280
swarnie wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some really basic questions will need to be answered. 1) What currecny are you using? 2) Where is your central bank? 3) What debt will you be departing with? 4) What cuts will be required when you can no longer take 32bn a year via the Barnett formula? Just simple, fundamental things really.

They need to be answered at some point, but not necessarily before the referendum. Not saying it's a best way to do it, but it's the most likely way. Brexit for example, was a referendum on a very broad question, the specifics were worked out afterwards. But most likely there will be a transition period, where monetary sovereignty is sacrificed in the short term, to allow central bank to be set up and votes held on v…

> Vote for this!

> What is it?

> We dont know yet!

Doesn't seem like a brilliant idea from where i'm sat. I think the comparison to Brexit will come up a lot, arguing for a similar process with six years of hindsight is... questionable....

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#307

Post by ciphol »

dubeye wrote: post #246
kmlx wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scotland ends up paying for things like HS2 and other London centric. i find it hard to believe Scottish people don't travel outside of Scotland.

It's not about travel, it's about economic activity. HS2 will funnel economic activity from poorer regions into London. Great for London.

HS2 will give poorer regions access to London and vice versa. Sounds like a good thing for the poorer regions

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#308

Post by bombcar »

zarzavat wrote: post #203
eyko wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do you think the entire government of a state should change? Some would argue every 4-5 years makes it impossible to have politicians with long term thinking. Why not have elections once every generation?

If Scotland votes for independence should they hold a referendum every 4-5 years on rejoining the UK?

Sure, if they want to. UK should also feel free to say “eh nah” in that case.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#309

Post by nextstep »

carnitine wrote: post #24
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

This is the funniest comment in this whole thread.

Many of the ideas of UKIP and the others have been adopted by the Tories! And the main opposition party (Labour) has been taken over by centre-right neoliberals. The left had a tiny bit of power pre-Brexit. Now it has none.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#310

Post by forgingahead »

scott_w wrote: post #185
carnitine wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who exactly in the cabinet is far right? Truss, Sunak, Javid, Raab and the rest hardly come across as the right wing mob. Rees-Mogg is the only one who maybe comes remotely close and he’s got one of the most minor positions.

Truss is moving to break a treaty to appease the far right nutters in her party. Javid, as Home Secretary, stripped a teenager of her British citizenship, leaving her stateless and stranded somewhere in Iraq or Syria.

For those reading along, the "teenager" being referenced is Shamima Begum, who ran away from home when she was 15 to allegedly join ISIS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamima_Begum

There's an interesting discussion to be had about whether a government official can strip someone of their citizenship (even though in the UK it seems to be part of their powers under the Nationality Act) - it's not correct to frame this emotionally under "deported a teenager" when there are specific issues at play here. Same with slandering anyone who is not politically aligned with you as "far right".

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