Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#251

Post by cjrp » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:41 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #225

SilverBirch wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but literally today is the first day that the government starting flying asylum seekers to Rwanda[1], and yesterday they published legislation with the intention of breaking international law[2]. They've also recently curtailed rights to legal protest[3]. The Prime Minister has a history of law breaking including illegally shutting down our parliament[4]. This government only got their majority when UKIP c…

Denmark's left-wing government is planning to send away asylum seekers too. It's interesting times when protecting borders from illegal immigration is seen as „far right“. It's not „far right“ rising, it's some people pushing Overton window extremely to the left. https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/denmark-talks-with-rwan...

> protecting borders from illegal immigration

Asylum-seeking is not illegal immigration.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#252

Post by brigandish » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:41 AM UTC

maccard wrote: post #139

brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote. That's not what has changed. I do agree that the SNP would likely be pushing _anyway_ (the hint is in their name), but a huge amount has been changed since we voted to remain part of the . The promises that were made regarding devolution are still not in place, and England voted on behalf of Scotland to leave the EU. > a third of those voting for independence also…

> England voted on behalf of Scotland to leave the EU.

The voting was done by British citizens, England and Scotland didn't get a vote.

> > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU, it's just an excuse.

> That's great for them, that means that a supermajority of Yes voters want to leave the UK but remain in the EU. That's as defintive as you can get in a vote.

I would say that the actual vote results are the most definitive. One was remain, one was leave.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#253

Post by hypertele-Xii » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:41 AM UTC

martindevans wrote: post #103

ivolimmen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. My view on the EU is that it is far from perfect but the fact that we collaborate on a larger scale is necessary and we should only try to enhance it. At some point (500+ years?) we should be one planet, that should the goal. (Sorry; I am out-of-this-world-super-left).

One huge government ruling the entire world sounds out-of-this-world-super dystopian to me!

World peace sounds dystopian to you?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#254

Post by smcl » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:42 AM UTC

synu wrote: post #181

brigandish wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK I don't even remember it coming up but if it means a lot to you then I can see you'd be aggravated, but how would it obviate the once in a generation pledge? Scotland can't join the EU if it goes independent anyway, the vote to remain really was the only practical way to stay in the EU.

The pledge you’re referring to is something every voter signed during the vote? Or something a politician had said? Also curious why Scotland is not able to apply if it leaves the UK? Thanks in advance for the info.

> Also curious why Scotland is not able to apply if it leaves the UK?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scotla...

They're talking nonsense. There is sometimes talk of Spain veto-ing Scottish accession to the EU as a sort of warning to Catalonians (who closely identify with the Scottish indy movement), but realistically Scotland is aligned with the EU acquis so there's no really go reason not to. They won't be able to rejoin on the same terms as the UK were in, but that's something that was lost forever after Brexit.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#255

Post by mschuster91 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:42 AM UTC

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #100

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them. If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Selec…

> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine.

> Freedom of association is the basic human right, and no majorisation should be allowed to happen. Never.

Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to associate with Russia is nothing more than a plain land grab, a sham election.

In contrast, there has been no campaign in Catalonia or in Scotland to forcibly remove ethnic Spaniards/English people in order to stage a fraudulent vote.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#256

Post by gambiting » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:42 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #225

SilverBirch wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, but literally today is the first day that the government starting flying asylum seekers to Rwanda[1], and yesterday they published legislation with the intention of breaking international law[2]. They've also recently curtailed rights to legal protest[3]. The Prime Minister has a history of law breaking including illegally shutting down our parliament[4]. This government only got their majority when UKIP c…

Denmark's left-wing government is planning to send away asylum seekers too. It's interesting times when protecting borders from illegal immigration is seen as „far right“. It's not „far right“ rising, it's some people pushing Overton window extremely to the left. https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/denmark-talks-with-rwan...

I don't think even the most fundamental left leaning people are against sending illegal immigrants away - the problem is that UK is choosing to send people away to Rwanda, basically telling them that it's a safe African country, good luck there. Ministers have confirmed that yeah, it's "possible" that for instance Ukrainian refugees could be sent there if they didn't follow the right procedures and are deemed "illegal".

I can only imagine that if not for horrible optics, UK would send them to Australia.

But oh well, I guess if your dream is to resurrect the British Empire, having a foreign penal colony is one of the requirements.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#257

Post by kitd » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:42 AM UTC

kmlx wrote: post #215

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. i don't get this. to me, in 2022, all the countries of the UK are exactly the same. even Ireland in some aspects. same language, same history, more or less same laws. what's so special about Scotland, and what's their "different path" as compared to, let's say, Wales?

Not the same distribution of revenue and resources though. London & Westminster have an excessive degree of power and might, and the other nations, as well as much of the rest of England, are powerless as a result.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#258

Post by modo_mario » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:42 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #150

slightwinder wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote. That's only true till the situation changes. If the reason for your vote disappeared, then it's legit to reevaluate your vote. > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote.

Anyone can claim the situation has changed, every year. Life does not go backwards. I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want". > > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU > Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote. Has that figure changed dramatically? Even if it ha…

Didn't the UK made a rather unprecedented move of lowkey changing some Scottish sea-border since to get some potential gas fields on the english side?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#259

Post by swarnie » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:42 AM UTC

dubeye wrote: post #206

physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

I very much doubt many scottish voters will pay too much attention to the economics. Are constitutional referendums ever really about economics? Brexit certainly wasn't

Some really basic questions will need to be answered.

1) What currecny are you using?

2) Where is your central bank?

3) What debt will you be departing with?

4) What cuts will be required when you can no longer take 32bn a year via the Barnett formula?

Just simple, fundamental things really.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#260

Post by mattlondon » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:42 AM UTC

I am happy for them to become independent, but I thought that last time this was a "once in a generation" type thing not a "every few years until we get the result we want"?

It strikes me as unfair to just do another referendum again so soon (I think it was in 2014, so like what 8 years?).

I think perhaps if they get one on Scottish independence, perhaps we should have a reverse-brexit referendum vote!