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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#131

Post by EiZei »

dataengineer56 wrote: post #75
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I don't see why not. The whole leaving the EU thing is a reasonable cause for independence. In general I like smaller units of government too, and it's not as if they can't cooperate with the UK in areas where they agree. I do have a horse in this race as I have Scottish family who'd have more choices with an EU passport.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

There are 9 EU countries that have less people than Scotland.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#132

Post by capableweb »

martindevans wrote: post #103
ivolimmen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. My view on the EU is that it is far from perfect but the fact that we collaborate on a larger scale is necessary and we should only try to enhance it. At some point (500+ years?) we should be one planet, that should the goal. (Sorry; I am out-of-this-world-super-left).

One huge government ruling the entire world sounds out-of-this-world-super dystopian to me!

I don't think "One huge government" was claimed. The claim was "one planet", which I think more means people should be unified more than we currently are.

One could imagine lots of ways to have a unified planet without one centralized government. The EU is certainly one model you can achieve unification at large without "one huge government" as it consists of many smaller governments coming together.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#133

Post by carnitine »

eyko wrote: post #50
carnitine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because fracturing your country and making it poorer and smaller probably isn’t desirable?

Smaller is desireable (leaner government, and fairer representation). Poorer is a matter of opinion -- Scotland has a healthy economy.

I’m talking from the perspective of a non-Scottish citizen. The UK - a healthy economy = poorer.

Smaller vs larger has arguments on either side. I think when you’re talking about major world powers there’s an appeal to not downsizing.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#134

Post by ggm »

chrisseaton wrote: post #71
ggm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significant is your get out clause. The SSP had six or so members and in electoral terms has been significantly more successful than any English or British equivalent except perhaps sinn fein, who were at least notionally socialist and left of labour. How far left do you want to go? Cenfuegos press was Scottish, that's a former angry brigade member.

Isn’t he dead? Hard to argue a dead person is strong!

Jimmy Maxton is dead as well: Red Clydeside long gone. There were scots Trotskyists, the rock climber Dougal Haston's family notably (he's dead too. I don't think he was political btw)

The point being made here is Scotland has a socialist history and has had explicitly socialist candidates elected to parliament in recent history. Like.. 2003-2007. I'd hesitate to call it dead just yet.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#135

Post by tupac_speedrap »

I love the non-Scottish people coming out of the woodwork trying to be experts on British politics. The SNP threaten to leave all the time, they lost the last vote by a landslide but they basically have to keep the threat alive to keep the money and powers coming from Westminster.

The SNP also mismanages many Scottish councils and there is far amount of sleaze associated with their members but it's "our sleaze" and not theirs so it is better.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#136

Post by blowski »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

When the last referendum was first announced, about 35% supported independence. During the campaign it went up to 45-50% and has hovered there ever since.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#137

Post by Gordonjcp »

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #57
madeofpalk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

Because Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom and their secession is therefore of great consequence for the rest of the union - how is that not obvious? I live in Scotland FYI. I am undecided on independence, but clearly part of the calculus is how it effects matters of concern to the rest of the UK. Consider what is to me, the following con and pro: (1) Scotland is more left-wing than the rest of the UK and its s…

> (1) Scotland is more left-wing than the rest of the UK and its secession would condemn the rest of the union to indefinite right-wing government.

Scotland's voters cannot influence the vote in England, under any circumstances.

If you want rid of the Tories, you have to teach England not to vote for the Tories.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#138

Post by dale_glass »

brigandish wrote: post #79
dale_glass wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

> people are allowed to change their opinion Since I've changed mine I think that is called teaching granny to suck eggs . > If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. I was told it was a once in a generation vote - has that changed? What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? How often should these type of referenda be held? > Holding up…

> I was told it was a once in a generation vote - has that changed? What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? How often should these type of referenda be held?

I don't think there's any fixed answer to such a question. But I'd say that if the population in general clearly changes their answer, then that merits putting that change in practice.

> Yes, you must forgive me for thinking that principles and promises are worth sticking to. I should be as cynical as politicians and simply go by what is convenient, right?

Yup. I'm a consequentialist. I care extremely little about iron-clad principles, and instead think that the thing we should be optimizing for is outcomes. There's no reason to live under the wrong outcome for the sake of some sort of idealism that brings no benefit to anyone. Rules can be changed as necessary, and promises can be reneged on (though IMO such promises shouldn't be made in the first place).

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#139

Post by maccard »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote.

That's not what has changed. I do agree that the SNP would likely be pushing _anyway_ (the hint is in their name), but a huge amount has been changed since we voted to remain part of the . The promises that were made regarding devolution are still not in place, and England voted on behalf of Scotland to leave the EU.

> a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU, it's just an excuse.

That's great for them, that means that a supermajority of Yes voters want to leave the UK but remain in the EU. That's as defintive as you can get in a vote.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#140

Post by WJW »

eyko wrote: post #40
afavour wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believed that the UK is better off as a united country. Not all that different from the logic for the UK staying in the EU: larger economic markets help everyone. A union of likeminded nations is better then isolation. I also have both English and Scottish relatives (one reason I consider myself a “Brit”) so you could say the concept plays into my self image. > it was your position to have an opinion I suppose I co…

Scotland can be independent _and_ be in the same economic market (ignoring UK and Spain willing to veto Scotland reentering EU out of spite / own political motives).

How would the UK veto an independent Scotland reentering the EU? They no longer have a vote to do so.
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